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As you may know for the bread to be hamotzi it has to be made of one of the 5 minim (wheat, barley, oat, rye, and spelt). The problem for celiacs like me is that we can't eat 4 of them, the oats being the exception when certified Gluten Free.

I used to make bread with GF-certified oats for Shabbat, with a recipe I made with a rav a few years ago, but right now I can't reach him. However that recipe is not very good as when you are making breads without gluten you have to replace it with other additives and mix of flours + starches.

I now have a good recipe for bread, that I learnt a couple weeks ago, which I want to be able to do with oats so it can be hamotzi

So my question is what are the conditions for bread to be hamotzi? I know that the oat has to be distinguishable in the taste of the bread, but I believe there are some things about minimum quantities that I can't remember right now. I’m Sephardi if this makes a difference.

Please quote sources so I can study this further.

mbloch
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Kobi
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  • Welcome to MiYodeya Kobi and thanks for this first question which is perfectly on scope. Great to have you learn with us! – mbloch Mar 08 '19 at 05:06
  • Related: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/38174/ – DonielF Mar 08 '19 at 05:38
  • @DonielF i read that one, but the answers given there talk about k`viut seudah, tzaar as a reason to not to eat, or just saying to eat oat bread, the question here is about requirementes for the bread to fit into hamotzi – Kobi Mar 08 '19 at 05:44
  • Possible duplicate of A bread is made with exactly 50% whole wheat flour and 50% chickpea flour. Is the bracha hamotzi? – DonielF Mar 08 '19 at 05:46
  • @DonielF, that would solve my question, i think between that and the sources in the answer below will be enough! – Kobi Mar 08 '19 at 05:49
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    I edited the fact you are Sephardi into the question as questions should be self standing. Glad to see you starting to get good hints. – mbloch Mar 08 '19 at 06:03
  • At the end consider posting an answer with your recipe and the Halachic sources as a service to future people with your condition. Many thanks – mbloch Mar 08 '19 at 06:07
  • Note oats is almost certainly not an original member of the 5 Minim. A few communities thought it was, but biologically, culinarily and historically it objectively doesn't fit with the Gemara's description at all. See too https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/91005/759 https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/17036/759 It's quite apparent if you think about it for a moment: looks nothing like, tastes nothing like, rises nothing like, feels nothing like, any of the other 4 which all look, taste, rise and feel like each other. There's an obvious one that's not like the other here. – Double AA Mar 08 '19 at 13:06
  • @DoubleAA it is what @DonielF brought the second source below too, my doubt here is, as there are many poskim that follow rashi`s translation, and we dont have sources to prove that שבולת שועל is actually kamut, or any other type of grain, would i be passing through an issur by doing hamotzi on something that would be mezonot or shehacol?

    on the side @mbloch , i will upload then, but i have another problem now, if its not completely safe to say hamotzi on this bread, i may pass trough lifnei iver by uploading this recipe and saying it is hamotzi

     – Kobi Mar 08 '19 at 15:26

1 Answers1

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Challah 3:7:

הָעוֹשֶׂה עִסָּה מִן הַחִטִּים וּמִן הָאֹרֶז, אִם יֶשׁ בָּהּ טַעַם דָּגָן, חַיֶּבֶת בַּחַלָּה, וְיוֹצֵא בָהּ אָדָם יְדֵי חוֹבָתוֹ בְּפֶסַח. וְאִם אֵין בָּהּ טַעַם דָּגָן, אֵינָהּ חַיֶּבֶת בַּחַלָּה, וְאֵין אָדָם יוֹצֵא בָהּ יְדֵי חוֹבָתוֹ בְּפֶסַח:

If one makes dough from flour and rice, if it has the taste of grain, it’s obligated in Challah, and one fulfills his obligation with it on Pesach. If it does not have the taste of grain, it is not obligated in Challah, and one does not fulfill his obligation with it on Pesach.

Zevachim 78a:

עשה עיסה מן חיטין ומן אורז אם יש בה טעם דגן חייבת בחלה ואע"ג דרובא אורז

If one made dough from wheat and from rice, if it has the taste of grain, it’s obligated in Challah, even though the majority is rice.

Rambam in Hilchos Bikkurim 6:11:

הַמְעָרֵב קֶמַח חִטִּין וְקֶמַח אֹרֶז וְעָשָׂה מֵהֶן עִסָּה אִם יֵשׁ בָּהּ טַעַם דָּגָן חַיֶּבֶת בְּחַלָּה וְאִם לָאו פְּטוּרָה. אֲפִלּוּ הָיָה הַשְּׂאוֹר חִטִּים לְתוֹךְ עִסַּת אֹרֶז. אִם יֵשׁ בָּהּ טַעַם דָּגָן חַיֶּבֶת בְּחַלָּה וְאִם לָאו פְּטוּרָה:

If one mixes wheat flour with with rice flour and makes from them dough, if it has the taste of grain, it is obligated in Challah, and if not, it is exempt. Even if the leavening was wheat in rice dough, if it has the taste of grain, it is obligated in Challah, and if not, it is exempt.

Shulchan Aruch, YD 324:9:

העושה עיסה מהחטים ומהאורז אם יש בה טעם דגן חייבת בחלה אע"פ שרובה אורז ואם לאו פטורה:

If one makes dough from wheat and from rice, if it has the taste of grain, it is obligated in Challah, even though the majority is rice, and if not, it’s exempt.

All of these sources are pretty clear: dough is only considered bread if it has the taste of the grain, even if the grain is in the minority.

If you’ll notice, all of these sources discuss specifically wheat and rice dough. What about oat and some non-Hamotzi, non-rice flour (ex. tapioca, potato, etc.)?

The Shach (YD 324:17) quotes a dispute on this:

אם יש בה טעם דגן חייב בחלה. דאורז גריר אחר החטין כן כתב העט"ז ולפי זה משמע בחטין ואורז אזלינן בתר טעם וכמ"ש הרשב"א אבל מהטור משמע להדיא דה"ה לכל ה' מיני דגן וכן משמע באשר"י דתלה הטעם דכיון דטעם כעיקר דאורייתא:

”If it has the taste of grain, it’s obligated in Challah.” For rice is dragged after the wheat; thus wrote the Taz. According to this, it’s implied that by wheat and rice we go after the taste, like that which the Rashba wrote. But from the Tur it’s clearly implied that this is the Halacha for all five grains, and it’s also implied like this in the Ashr”ei (?) who hangs the reasoning as since taste is the primary part on a Torah level.

DonielF
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  • thanks a lot for the quick answer! if anyone has another source to quote it would be great (just so i can get as mekorot as possible to study them here) – Kobi Mar 08 '19 at 05:38
  • @Kobi I went through the sugya shortly after I was diagnosed with a gluten allergy myself, so I’m familiar with the sources. You should know that while many poskim follow Rashi’s translation of שבולת שועל as oat, it’s not so simple that that’s accurate. Personally I use bread that’s a bit more than 50% oat and a bit less than 50% regular GF flour. – DonielF Mar 08 '19 at 05:41
  • thanks, i had never heard about the machloket of the translation of rashi, i always thought it was lekule alma as i got badatz - mehadrin certified oat matzah a couple of years ago! more to study then! thanks a lot for all the sources! – Kobi Mar 08 '19 at 05:47
  • @Kobi https://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/91004/ It’s actually much easier to hear the logic not like Rashi IMO. – DonielF Mar 08 '19 at 05:48
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    @kobi oat matza producers have a really hard time making it on the regular machines because the dough doesn't form well. Gluten is stretchy and helps keep a dough together as you work it. Oat flour and water just falls apart/crumbles rendering the quick matza making process very difficult. Oats weren't designed for matza making. The high price isn't just because there's a small market. It's because it's incredibly difficult to make and lots of it ends up in the trash. – Double AA Mar 08 '19 at 15:44
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    @DoubleAA Not to mention that oat Matza is absolutely nasty – DonielF Mar 08 '19 at 15:45
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    @Doniel You know why? It's because oats, unlike wheat etc., have a nasty tasting chemical in them. Usually Quaker etc. steam treats them to denature that protein, but for Pesach no can do. Arguably the beracha probably is just shehakol on "oat matza" since it tastes so bad and isn't the normal way of eating that food. Like green tomatoes or raw onion. Unsteamed oats aren't food. – Double AA Mar 08 '19 at 15:47
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    @DoubleAA @DonielF Yes! i knew that as i was diagnosed with celiac disease on 2002, i have tried all diffrent brands, talked with many producers and they explained why the flavor is so bad, and the price is so expensive, kestembaum, lakewood, and the one that i found with less bitter taste was tiv hashibolet from Israel, i am also the one that gets gluten free matzah every year for the jewish celiacs in argentina(thats where i live) and we distribute it at the price that it is sold to us, so right now im starting to contact many distributors from us to israel for this year`s pesach – Kobi Mar 08 '19 at 16:33
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    Note also it's a Machloket Rishonim if wheat that can't rise because you took out the gluten parts and just made bread with the bran is kosher for matza. So even if oat is the right species, if you breed and process some stalks to not have gluten, it might be invalid for the Mitzva anyway. You need a dough which could in theory rise. See bit.ly/2TFLgKw – Double AA Mar 08 '19 at 16:46
  • I make 100% oat matzoh every year and it's delicious. I use organic oats that are also certified gluten-free. Rolled oats which I put in the food processor to make my own flour. It's best fresh. It tastes fine if older but gets leathery. I am unable to make the crisp light texture of wheat matzoh. My seder guests eat the stuff up (the years I've bought matzoh they only eat the minimum). I'm a good cook but awful at baking so this is not a skill thing. I just use my oat flour, water, and some salt. – Cyn Mar 14 '19 at 14:16
  • @Cyn It sounds like you’re describing Sefardi matzah, from the fact that it gets leathery rather than stale. Might help for the OP, with the proper preparation, but sadly I’m stuck with the disgusting ones until I can track down some of the less unappealing ones Kobi referenced. – DonielF Mar 14 '19 at 14:20
  • I've also made challah from non-chamotz and then rolled it in rolled oats before baking. I know it's not the right percentages but you can taste the oats because they're on the outside of the bread and they're still intact so very visible as oats. My favorite dough to use is masa (the tortilla kind, not the tamale kind, so just plain fresh masa and not masa harina). It is very easy to shape and braid and tastes great baked. A woman from shul with celiac makes amazing challah with mostly oat flour, but I don't have her recipe. – Cyn Mar 14 '19 at 14:22
  • @DonielF Interesting, I didn't know there was a difference. I tried to make the crisp kind and failed, so I learned to embrace the kind I could make (which is still very good). I'm Ashkenazi living in the US. We can buy oat matzoh in boxes now at reasonable prices so we used it last year and...it was awful. Not gross, just tasteless. My guests all wished I'd made it that year, so I will this year, even though it's one extra thing on top of a long menu (I make everything from scratch). – Cyn Mar 14 '19 at 14:25
  • @Cyn I’m not sure it’s so simple that counts as Hamotzi. It could well be that the oats are considered secondary to the dough, which is Shehakol. My mom makes with I think it’s 5 parts oat flour to 3 parts GF substitution flour. – DonielF Mar 14 '19 at 14:25
  • @Cyn Make sure to check with your Rabbi in that case - if I’m not mistaken, Sefardim can eat Ashkenazi matzah, but, depending on how it’s prepared, Ashkenazim can’t eat Sefardi matzah. There’s several variables to consider; it’s possible to make Sefardi matzah in a way that Ashkenazim can eat it, but it’s tricky and, I’m told, doesn’t taste nearly as good. (I tried the fake Sefardi matzah once - it came out super rubbery.) – DonielF Mar 14 '19 at 14:27
  • @DonielF You are probably right about the challah (the matzoh is 100% oat so I know it counts, & I time the baking...my (Conservative) Rabbi helped with details the first year). I created that recipe before learning about the percentage rule. I've done it with both GF bread mix (Pamela's or Bob's Red Mill) and with masa and the masa is fantastic, but it's hard to find fresh masa and, while I can make it myself, I don't have the equipment to get it smooth and thick like the pros. I'm not Orthodox so my brand recs may not work for everyone. The baker I mention above makes her own dough mix. – Cyn Mar 14 '19 at 14:30
  • Regarding soft matza, R Asher Weiss rules it's fine for an Ashkenazi in times of need like a Choleh (others are more lenient, and a few are more strict). Soft Matza has less gluten per kezayit because of extra water and air, so if you can manage to eat an olive size (about one bite) of soft Matza without getting too sick, that's probably preferable to hard oat matza. – Double AA Apr 02 '19 at 19:29
  • @DoubleAA Halevai that were an option. Even a few crumbs is enough to set me off (though for some reason I'm fine with rice, which does have some measure of gluten in it). – DonielF Apr 02 '19 at 19:36
  • @Cyb rolled oats are steamed first https://cooking.stackexchange.com/q/97226/8291 so they are probably Chametz to start. – Double AA Apr 03 '19 at 02:40