What would've happened had Melkor won?

Question

I'm interested to know if there were any notes on what would've happened has Melkor successfully overthrown the other Valar and assumed complete control of Arda.

Obvious answers like "He'd kill everything and make more orcs" are not what I'm looking for here, more looking into the possibility that it was impossible to win and therefore his efforts were completely futile. Yet surely, a spirit as powerful and wise as Melkor, having listened to the music, would be able to distinguish the difference between something worth doing and something that's not.

I ask this because surely, Eru being the giver of life and all powerful would not have created something that would have the ability to overthrow even himself? But yet Melkor persisted in trying to assume at least equal standing after his discord in the music and continued to do so after Arda was created.

Few things to answer here. Was it futile? Were there any Tolkien notes on it? If not, anyone else who was close to his works like his family.

I read a fascinating article years ago which argued that it was in Melkor's nature to lose, because he was rebelling against Eru in every way, both physically and philosophically. Not that he "wanted" to lose exactly, but that he was a spiritual mirror of everything good. Since heroes traditionally struggle through weakness to achieve victory, so Melkor (and Sauron) took the opposite path: incredible strength, ending in defeat. In doing so, they remained true to their doctrine of complete rebellion, in every way. It's a very esoteric and philosophical idea, but it's stuck with me. — Nerrolken, Aug 21 '15 at 14:18
Things would probably have gotten way more orcish, and way more demonic. Films like Birth of a Nation, Triumph of the Will, and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier would probably be the high points of cultural achievement. ;) — Lexible, Aug 21 '15 at 17:12
Even if Melkor had "won" inside Eä he was within time, he would not have been able to overthrow Eru — , Aug 24 '15 at 10:05

Jason Baker · Accepted Answer · 2015-08-21T17:34:51.020

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Surprisingly, Tolkien did actually write a bit about this. In an essay titled "Notes on motives", where he compares and contrasts Sauron and Morgoth at the height of their influence, there are hints at what Morgoth would have done if left to his own devices. The key points:

It's not really possible for Morgoth to "win", because his goal isn't achievable. Morgoth's "goal", insofar as he has one aside from random villainy, is described as:

Morgoth had no 'plan': unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a 'plan'.

^{_{History of Middle-earth X Morgoth's Ring Part 5: "Myths Transformed" Chapter VII "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion"}}

But this isn't something he can actually do; as Tolkien writes, Morgoth can only destroy the form of matter, not the matter itself:

Melkor could not, of course, 'annihilate' anything of matter, he could only ruin or destroy or corrupt the forms given to matter by other minds in their sub- creative activities.

^{_{History of Middle-earth X Morgoth's Ring Part 5: "Myths Transformed" Chapter VII "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion"}}
The closest we can come to a "win" condition for Morgoth is ending any opposition to his destruction; if he were to crush the resistance of Elves and Men, and if the Valar retreated and left him alone, then Morgoth's reaction would, basically, have been to eventually destroy everything; but even that wouldn't really be "winning":

Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men. [...] even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed', independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.

^{_{History of Middle-earth X Morgoth's Ring Part 5: "Myths Transformed" Chapter VII "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion"}}

edited Aug 21 '15 at 17:34

answered Aug 21 '15 at 15:52

Jason Baker

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Genocide for genocide's sake. Yeesh. – Nerrolken Aug 21 '15 at 16:11
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His plan was the total annihilation of everything? Hmm. Someone needs to go on an anger management course. – Valorum Aug 21 '15 at 17:49
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So he was a griefer. ^_^ – Robert Fisher Aug 21 '15 at 18:40
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@RobertFisher glad the Valar didn't had Internet by then. – Mindwin Remember Monica Aug 21 '15 at 19:34
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Good answer! Though I'm surprised... somehow I always thought both Melkor's and Sauron's ultimate intent was absolute control. I thought they didn't see themselves as necessarily evil, but that they wanted to control the world and shape it to their needs, and that this was precisely the nature of Evil according to Tolkien. Obviously I was wrong... – Andres F. Aug 22 '15 at 08:11
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@Richard I’m sure the Krikkit could recommend some good ones. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 22 '15 at 10:35
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Thanks for the answer and the references. So basically Morgoth was kicked from the Minecraft server for using too much TNT. – John Bell Aug 22 '15 at 21:31
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@andres I remember reading somewhere Tolkien saying that anything evil or otherwise starts out naturally with good intentions. I'm sure ISIS see their way as the only good way to ensure their survival but the world is so massively opposed to their views and actions, we see them intrinsically as evil deeds. – John Bell Aug 22 '15 at 21:39
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@JohnBell Basically. The griefer comparison is actually a really good one: Melkor wanted his own Minecraft server, but Eru wouldn't release the source code and Melkor's account didn't have enough admin privileges to give him complete control. So he lashed out by breaking everybody else's toys – Jason Baker Aug 23 '15 at 04:42
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@AndresF. I wouldn't say you're entirely wrong. Morgoth and Sauron did want absolute control, but over different things: Morgoth wanted to control everything, but Sauron was content with just the world's inhabitants. Whether or not they thought of themselves as evil I'm not sure off-hand; Morgoth went a bit nutty, so the distinction probably didn't make much difference to him. Not at all sure about Sauron – Jason Baker Aug 23 '15 at 04:47
@AndresF. That's how it starts, but remember that both Morgoth and Sauron are driven by hatred and malice. These aren't misguided crusaders, like Ra's al-Ghul, they're creatures of sadism and cruelty. They enjoy causing pain. Sure they want control, but that doesn't mean they don't think of themselves as evil. – Nerrolken Aug 24 '15 at 14:17
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Sauron wasn't initially driven by hate. Shame was his main sin to begin with, until Eru reshaped the cosmos and probably accidentally dropped a big rock on him. I'd say that's enough to hate anyone. – John Bell Aug 25 '15 at 11:10
But didn't Melkor try to claim middle earth immediately after it's creation?surely he wouldn't want to destroy it if he'd been given dominion of it. – turinsbane Aug 28 '15 at 14:38
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@turinsbane Dominion wasn't enough for Morgoth; he needed creative control, but that was something he could never have. That understanding is the root of his hatred not only of Elves and Men, but of the entire world; Tolkien notes of things like trees and flowers "If such things were forced upon his attention, he was angry and hated them as coming from minds other than his own." So yes, he absolutely would have destroyed it, as a child throwing a tantrum – Jason Baker Aug 28 '15 at 17:02
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The Minecraft griefer phenomenon is a really good study of good and evil. – Joshua Sep 28 '15 at 15:30

What would've happened had Melkor won?

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