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I have recently come to learn some things about Aragorn and Arwen that trouble me. According to Tolkien Gateway's entry on Aragorn, he went to live with Elrond at Rivendell when he was only two years old, and Elrond raised him as his own son from that time on. Only when Aragorn was about 20 years old did Elrond tell Aragorn that he was not Elrond's real son, and that he was, in fact, the heir of Isildur. About a year later, when Aragorn was 21 or so, he fell in love with Elrond's daughter Arwen. Tolkien Gateway says that this happened when Arwen returned to Rivendell from Lorien, where her grandparents lived.

This bothers me because it means that Aragorn fell in love with a woman who, for as long as he could remember, and up until a year earlier, he believed to be his sister. Of course, she wasn't actually his sister, but he thought she was for most of his life.

Humans have an instinctive aversion to entering romantic relationships with people we're in close contact with early in our lives (this phenomenon is known as the Westermarck Effect, or "reverse sexual imprinting"). But Aragorn and Arwen seem to have ignored this instinct completely. Tolkien Gateway suggests, but doesn't explicitly state, that Arwen and Aragorn might not have met before Aragorn was 21, but it offers no citations for this suggestion. It seems unlikely that Arwen, who was already more than a thousand years old (I believe she was over 2,000 years old, as a matter of fact) by this time, spent 20 years straight with her grandparents in Lorien, never once visiting her father and brothers in Rivendell. She was an adult, free to come and go as she pleased, and could have gone home whenever she wanted to.

Even if they hadn't met before, they certainly knew of each other, and Aragorn believed her to be his sister for as long as he could remember. She would have heard about her new baby foster brother being brought to Rivendell, to be raised by her father Elrond as his foster son. Aragorn would have seen Arwen's brothers as his own brothers, her father as his father, and he would have heard much about his sister Arwen. Even if they had never seen each other before, they still would have regarded each other as brother and sister.

And if they had truly never met before, and even though Aragorn learned the truth a year earlier- that Elrond wasn't his father, and Elrond's children were not his siblings, Aragorn instantly becoming smitten with Arwen still seems creepy. According to Tolkien Gateway, Arwen didn't feel anything for Aragorn until a year or so after Aragorn fell in love with her, but still, it is also creepy that she fell in love with him.

It is even more bizarre that Elrond approved of their courtship, regardless of the fact that he refused to let them marry until Aragorn became King of Gondor and Arnor. After all, Elrond still regarded Aragorn as his foster son, and obviously treated Arwen as his actual daughter (which she was), so he essentially condoned a marriage between his daughter and adopted son.

It bears repeating that Aragorn's immediate reaction to meeting his stepsister (for lack of a better word) was to fall in love with her. She soon returned his affection, and fell in love with her stepbrother, even going so far as to surrender her immortality to be with him. And again, their father approved of their relationship, albeit after setting some conditions for Aragorn to meet before they could get married.

So I have to ask a few related questions to put my mind at ease, although I don't think any answer will make this relationship seem any less unnatural.

  1. Is it true that Aragorn and Arwen had never met before Aragorn was 21 or so?
  2. Do we know anything about how the relationship began?
  3. Am I wrong in thinking that, for most of his childhood and adolescence, Aragorn believed Elrond to be his real father? Tolkien Gateway says Elrond told Aragorn the truth about his ancestry when he was around 20 years old, and that before that point, he raised Aragorn as his own son; I took this to mean that Aragorn genuinely believed he was Elrond's actual son until then. If I was wrong, the Aragorn-Arwen thing might be less disgusting.
Wad Cheber
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    Have you read "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", from Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings? That answers all your questions. – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 17:45
  • @MattGutting - no, I just started reading Return of the King and I was going to read the appendices afterwards. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 17:51
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    I wondered if that was a smart move for a while, but when I noticed that the appendices go on for 130 pages, I figured I had made the right choice. They will have to wait. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 18:00
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    I first read the books when I was 13 or so, and the only one available in the library was The Return of the King. So I read that first. The Appendices were the only part that made complete sense to me. It took months for me to get a hold of the whole thing and make sense out of it all. – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 18:15
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    @MattGutting - I found the snippet from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the appendices, after hunting for a while (it is really buried in there). I have learned that their first meeting was indeed when Aragorn was about 21, but I'm not sure whether he believed Elrond was his father (though it seems unlikely, since his mom was with him), and the beginning of their relationship is not much clearer than it was before. And the relationship still seems creepy. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 18:18
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    You could probably cut away 70% of this and you'd have a nice, cohesive (and waaaaay easier to read) question. Just sayin'... – Omegacron May 22 '15 at 18:20
  • @Omegacron - I am long winded. I can't help it. I write my questions at great length, more for myself than for anyone else's benefit. I'm explaining what I mean to myself as much as to potential answerers. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 18:28
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    Technically Aragorn and Arwen are first cousins. At least 45 times removed; but first cousins. – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 18:28
  • What do you find unclear about the beginning of their relationship? – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 18:29
  • @MattGutting - there just wasn't much information about it. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 18:34
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    It shows the day of their first meeting and their entire first conversation. What else do you want? – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 18:35
  • @MattGutting - Does your parents' first meeting and first conversation tell you everything there is to know about how they got together? Not in my book. Most people don't consider themselves to be dating after a single conversation. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 18:41
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 18:41
  • I've updated my answer to include a very brief discussion of the development of their romantic relationship, as well as their first actual meeting. – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 19:24
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    Being away for 20 years when you're 2000 years old (and expecting to live forever) isn't that long, that's like a 20 year old human taking off for a couple months. – mu is too short May 22 '15 at 20:41
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    Consider that characterizations like "creepy" and "disgusting" are very strong and may be only you that sees it this way. I've never considered the relationship creepy, even remotely. Other opinions may vary. – ypercubeᵀᴹ May 22 '15 at 21:16
  • @ypercube - according to Matt's answer, it isn't really creepy or disgusting- Aragorn never considered her his sister, and never thought Elrond was his dad. That means there is nothing untoward about it. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 21:54
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    My point is that your question is stated as if you feel is is disgusting. You say "If I was wrong, the Aragorn-Arwen thing might be less disgusting." So, according to the answer you were wrong. But it might still be disgusting, only less? – ypercubeᵀᴹ May 22 '15 at 22:04
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    Humans have an instinctive aversion to entering romantic relationships with people we're in close contact with early in our lives. The Lannisters send their regards. – corsiKa May 22 '15 at 22:25
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    @corsiKa I think that's a Game of Thrones reference. I know nothing about the show, but it seems to be about kings and junk. Royalty aren't humans. They all inbreed, which is why they all have hemophilia. It is also known as the royal disease or something like that. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 22:27
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    @ypercube - no, I was wrong on all counts, so it is neither disgusting nor creepy. I made assumptions that had no basis in reality. I am relieved to have my high opinion of Aragorn and Arwen restored to its former glory. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 22:31
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    @ypercube - to paraphrase Emperor Palpatine, "I have found that it was I who was mistaken.... About a great. Many. Things." – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 22:35
  • @corsiKa - when I originally wrote this question, I described a study that demonstrated the instinctive aversion to inbreeding. It was edited out. Here is a link to more information about it. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 22:44
  • @WadCheber - " I am relieved to have my high opinion of Aragorn and Arwen restored to its former glory" ....so you are a conservative guy, having opinions on people based on moral ethics that are based on conventions of an almost religious kind... you surprise me ;-) – Joel May 23 '15 at 15:46
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    @Joel - no, I a socialist who has 5 half siblings. The thought of siblings hooking up grosses me out - even quasi-siblings. Since we are instinctively averse to inbreeding, religion has nothing to do with it. – Wad Cheber May 23 '15 at 17:33
  • @WadCheber - you were raised that way. That's all. If you had been born in another place or another time, things would be different. It's conformity that creates that feeling. There are places in the middle-east where marrying between cousins is the norm. They don't have that barrier. Don't worry, Tolkien thought the same as you do, he addresses that issue with the tale of Turin Turambar. – Joel May 23 '15 at 18:05
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    @Joel - marrying cousins is definitely a different issue, and is far more common and far more widely accepted than marrying siblings. I am willing to admit that not everyone shares my feelings about the cousin thing. But the sibling thing is different - the Westermarck Effect (aka reverse sexual imprinting) demonstrates that. Almost every culture in history has had taboos against sexual relations between siblings, because we are hard wired to feel repulsed by it. It is like the instinct to avoid eating rotten meat - we can learn to overcome it, but there isn't a good reason to do so. – Wad Cheber May 23 '15 at 19:24
  • @Joel check out the link regarding the Westermarck Effect in my question. The best evidence suggests that our brains usually prevent us from entering sexual relationships with people we were very close to from birth until age 6 or so. This is how our instincts keep us from inadvertently mating with siblings. – Wad Cheber May 23 '15 at 19:28
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    @WadCheber - I know that, that doesn't change what I said. My parents were divorced when I was 13. Does the daughter of my step-father that I met around that time enter your description ? We were raised together long enough to become like siblings and act like so... That said, don't freak out, I didn't have relationship with her ! ;-) but it could have happened... so what ? That would make us outcasts better to be hidden from the eyes of society and not worthy anymore ? Sorry I believe in love as being a stronger force, not conventions. That said, in Tolkien, marrying first cousins is a no-no. – Joel May 24 '15 at 15:39
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    @Joel - no, your example does not apply. The Westermarck Effect takes place between birth and age 6. If you met after you were 6, it wouldn't apply. This is not a convention- a 1 year old or 3 year old doesn't have conventions. This is instinct on a totally unconscious level. It doesn't involve conscious thought in any way. It is evolution at work. – Wad Cheber May 24 '15 at 17:42
  • If you read the edit history you'll see what I mean. Read the paragraph about the study - these people didn't even remember knowing each other as little kids, but they almost never entered relationships with each other anyway. It isn't about conventions at all, it is pure instinct. It is in the paragraph cut out in edit #2. – Wad Cheber May 24 '15 at 17:45
  • @WadCheber - Sorry but you do not see my point. What I say, is that if this kind of siblings do fall in love and decide to live it, then it's not society's right to judge because it's their own business. If you judge that, then you are doing so because of conventions, not because it is harmful to you or society. Those are false morals, and it's exactly what I dislike the most about religions. If those sibling decide not to live it because THEY are grossed out by it, it's another story, but still their business... see ? – Joel May 24 '15 at 18:44
  • @Joel - yeah, I get it now. It is literally impossible to not judge people, but regardless of my own feelings, I wouldn't try to interfere with other people's relationships anyway. I'd be grossed out if step siblings who grew up together hooked up, but I would keep it to myself. If they didn't grow up together, it is less weird to me. But hey, whatever floats your boat. – Wad Cheber May 24 '15 at 18:49
  • Heck, I don't know what the problem is. I grew up in the South, and I got a bunch of purty cousins... – Omegacron Jun 01 '15 at 18:58
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    @MattGutting - I finally found canon evidence that the Rings made Dwarves greedy. Appendix A, Durin's Folk: "The only power over [dwarves] that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them". – Wad Cheber Jun 01 '15 at 22:44
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    I used to know a guy who had been adopted as a baby. He'd always known he was adopted. When they grew up he and his adoptive sister got married. We all found this creepy. – RedSonja Dec 17 '15 at 14:20
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    Elrond is a Elf,Aragorn is a man,I'm pretty sure Aragorn would've figured it out pretty early – turinsbane Jun 05 '16 at 13:17
  • Tinder. Obviously. – Paul Aug 29 '17 at 22:37
  • It is also worth mentioning that Arwen and Aragorn are relatives despite them not being brothers. – Mrc4t987 Oct 17 '22 at 17:03

1 Answers1

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So here's a summary of answers, from "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", which appears in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings.

  1. Is it true that Aragorn and Arwen had never met before Aragorn was 21 or so?

    Yes. At their first meeting, Aragorn and Arwen's conversation includes the following interchange:

    "Often is it seen," said Aragorn, "that in dangerous days men hide their chief treasure.I marvel at Elrond and your brothers; for though I have dwelt in this house from childhood, I have heard no word of you. How comes it that we have never met before? Surely your father has not kept you locked in his hoard?"

    "No," she said, and looked up at the Mountains that rose in the east. "I have dwelt for a time in the land of my mother's kin, in far Lothlórien. I have but lately returned to visit my father again. It is many years since I walked in Imladris."

    It seems, then, that in fact Arwen had been in Lórien for at least 20 years—or perhaps at least 17; she may have been in Rivendell when Aragorn was too young to remember her.

  2. Do we know anything about how their relationship began?

    Again, yes. I'm not going to quote in extenso the passage from the Tale, but briefly here's what happens:

    • At age 20, "after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond" as the story tells it, Elrond is sufficiently pleased with Aragorn to tell him his true name and lineage.
    • The next day, Aragorn is walking in the woods, just being happy, and singing part of the Lay of Lúthien, when all of a sudden he sees Arwen; thinking he's in a dream, he calls her "Tinúviel".
    • She laughs and they get into a conversation (including the above excerpt) in which Aragorn realizes that she's actually a few thousand years or so older than he is. (According to Appendix B, Arwen was born in 241 of the Third Age and thus was 2710 years older than Aragorn.)
    • A few days later, he admits his love to his mother, Gilraen, who is with him in Rivendell and who doesn't entirely approve. (Elrond discusses the matter with him some time later, and more or less agrees with Gilraen.)
    • Realizing that he may never get to date Arwen, Aragorn says goodbye to her, Elrond, and his mom, and leaves to go off and do manly things for twenty-nine years.
    • At age 49, he comes back from a journey and rests for a while in Lórien. Unknown to him, Arwen is there. (She doesn't know he's there either.)
    • Galadriel cleans him up, and dresses him up, and he goes walking in the woods and encounters Arwen.
    • She falls in love with him at first sight. They discuss the fact that Aragorn is human, and that if betrothed, Arwen will have to renounce her elven status and die like him.
    • After what appears to be some intense agonizing over the question, she decides to do so.

    Not quite a "love at first sight" story, but something rather similar.

  3. Am I wrong in thinking that, for most of his childhood and adolescence, Aragorn believed Elrond to be his real father?

    There's no direct statement bearing on that question; however, the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen states the following:

    [After his father Arathorn's death] Aragorn, being now the Heir of Isildur, was taken with his mother to dwell in the house of Elrond; and Elrond took the place of his father and came to love him as a son of his own.

    That phrasing (together with the lack of evidence that Elrond and Gilraen were acting in any sense as man and wife) suggests very strongly to me that yes, you are wrong in believing that. Estel, as Aragorn was called when he was young, did not know his real name, or his ancestry; but I don't see any evidence that he thought Elrond was his biological father. Furthermore, although you do state (correctly) that "Elrond ... regarded Aragorn as his foster son", you then move on to state that Elrond was condoning his daughter's marriage to "his adopted son". There's a huge difference between those two concepts; and there's no evidence I can see to indicate that Elrond considered Aragorn an "adopted son" on the same level as Elladan and Elrohir, nor that Aragorn considered Arwen his "stepsister" in any sense. In short, I believe your statement

    Aragorn would have seen Arwen's brothers as his own brothers, her father as his father, and he would have heard much about his sister Arwen. Even if they had never seen each other before, they still would have regarded each other as brother and sister

    is seriously flawed.

Matt Gutting
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    +1 and many thanks. Your answer suggests that there is no evidence that Aragorn believed Elrond to be his father, especially since his mom was there and obviously wasn't Elrond's wife. Without this bit of information, it would be logical to assume that Aragorn thought Elrond was his dad, since Elrond was the man who was raising him and treating him like a son. I guess Aragorn and Arwen's relationship is a little less creepy, but there is still the issue of Elrond approving of his foster son marrying his daughter. So some creepiness remains. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 18:25
  • @MattGutting - In fact there is no reason to believe that Aragorn wouldn't know Elrond and the others living in Rivendell were elves and that he himself was a man. That wouldn't make sense since Elrond wanted to give him the best education possible as the heir of Isildur. – Joel May 22 '15 at 18:26
  • @Wad Cheber - That's silly. Kids don't just think that any male involved in their raising is their biological dad. Especially if they aren't even human. Not to mention that his mother certainly told Aragorn his heritage, since he was so dedicated to it. – Oldcat May 22 '15 at 18:28
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    @Oldcat - Aragorn's mother didn't want him to know is heritage before he had come of age, that's why she named him Estel before his manhood. – Joel May 22 '15 at 18:29
  • @Oldcat - the book seems to suggest that Aragorn's ancestry was kept secret for his own safety. And if his mom wasn't around, having an affectionate male raising him like his own son would give him every reason to believe that the man was his father. Elrond is half elf, and Aragorn is part elf. Kids can't do genetic math. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 18:31
  • @Oldcat - Elrond is half elf, Aragorn is part elf. – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 18:34
  • @WadCheber - Aragorn's elf heritage is 6000 years old by then... not something that would make you think you're an elf! – Joel May 22 '15 at 18:35
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    @WadCheber yes, Aragorn is part elf, but it's like 40 generations removed by his time - just barely enough to live 200 years. – Omegacron May 22 '15 at 18:36
  • We should discuss that in chat as well. – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 18:46
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    @WadCheber: except that's not how it works in Tolkien's world. Elrond is an elf because he chose to be an elf; his twin brother was a human because he chose to be a human. Note that very few people get such a choice, though; Aragorn is human, whether he likes it or not, because that way-long-ago halfblood ancestor of his (who happened to be the aforementioned brother of Elrond) chose to be a human. – Martha May 22 '15 at 18:54
  • Agreed. Comments are getting a bit out of hand. Chat is for chat., – Valorum May 22 '15 at 18:58
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    "...if betrothed, Arwen will have to renounce her elven status and die like him." - Something which I really don't understand. Many people survive the death of a spouse, and indeed, enter into marriages knowing there's a great chance that one spouse will outlive the other. (As my neighbors: he's about 30 years older than she is, though still kicking at 100.) I guess Tolkien isn't much better on relationships than on practical horsemanship :-( – jamesqf May 22 '15 at 22:00
  • I have never been so happy to be proven wrong. There was nothing creepy or disgusting about the relationship! Yay! – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 22:33
  • @MattGutting I don't want to nitpick, but when Arwen sees Aragorn after 30 years, then falls in love with him, wouldn't that be love at second sight, not love at first sight? :) – Wad Cheber May 22 '15 at 22:37
  • Nah. She's seen him for all of a few minutes thirty years previously. Doesn't count. ;-) – Matt Gutting May 22 '15 at 23:29
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    @jamesqf: it has nothing to do with surviving heartbreak/the death of a spouse. Think of it more in terms of a member of a royal family marrying a commoner: in many cases, the royal needs to renounce all claims to the monarchy in order for the marriage to be allowed. So in essence, the royal needs to become a commoner if he/she wants to marry a commoner; and if the commoner spouse dies before the former-royal, said former-royal can't just say "I want my place in the line of succession back now." – Martha Jan 23 '16 at 00:22
  • Just an observation to supplement points made above: Even if Aragorn were somehow disposed to wonder if Elrond might be his father, I would think that his own lack of pointed ears might give him a clue. – pleurocoelus Mar 17 '16 at 09:18
  • @jamesqf It's more like, in Arda Elves and Men have different fates after death. Elves are called immortal because they never leave Arda - when they die, they go to the Halls of Mandos and after a time re-enter the world. Men, on the other hand, go to the Halls of Mandos briefly (with a few staying longer, such as Beren) before departing for some unknown fate outside the circles of the world (this is called the Gift of Men). – Turambar Jun 03 '16 at 12:08
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    @Martha (thought both of these comments are for both of you) If, when an elf and a human married, the elf did not give up immortality (or the man did not give up his/her Gift, which happened less often), they would share different fates. Which is why it's such a hard decision, because it also requires giving up the shared fate with your family. Also, the one time that we know an elf remarried, it basically snowballed into the greatest chain of mistakes in the history of the world, to the point where the events of LotR are still a consequence of it. (See Finwë, and his son Fëanor) – Turambar Jun 03 '16 at 12:14
  • @pleurocoelus: Unless I'm mistaken, Tolkien never gave pointed ears to Elves. That's a Peter Jackson invention (admittedly backed by the depiction of other types of elves in other stories.) – GreenMatt Jun 03 '16 at 15:27
  • You make lots and lots of assumptions in your question. It's quite possible that Aragorn hadn't heard much about Arwen while growing up in Rivendell. I also think that he didn't consider Elrond his true father, I think he was aware that he was a foster son all along. – Maksim May 25 '15 at 08:26
  • +1 for Aragorn heading off to do manly things for 29 years :,) – maguirenumber6 Apr 20 '17 at 18:46
  • @joel I am almost certain it was Elrond who gave Aragorn the name Estel and I can picture the dialogue in my head too. – Pryftan May 31 '18 at 20:13