Who is the older of two, Goldberry or Tom Bombadil? Tom found her long ago,but she was there for him to find, couldn't she be older than him?
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4Also see here: Who or what is the oldest sentient being in Tolkien's lore? – terdon Apr 16 '14 at 11:23
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In the Fellowship of the Ring Tom describes himself as:
Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.’
This implies he believes himself to be older than Goldberry.
John Rennie
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4Assuming "the little People" refers to hobbits, it's a pity he didn't tell us where they arrived from. – Keith Thompson Apr 16 '14 at 18:02
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It's also worth noting that the Dark Lord here is referring to Morgoth. Christopher gives reason for this for those unconvinced although I don't have it at the ready ('from Outside' is part of it though). But this fact does mean that he really is old (then again so is Sauron). – Pryftan Jan 12 '18 at 01:38
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@KeithThompson I'm vague on it but I'm pretty sure it's been said in further literature - perhaps by Christopher. And I'm also pretty sure he is referring to Hobbits. I only say 'pretty sure' because I am also vague on it but they're the ones who refer to Men as 'Big People'. – Pryftan Jan 12 '18 at 01:41
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Goldberry is the "River-woman's daughter", which means that she obviously has a mother. Tolkien never states exactly who the River-woman is, but if Tom is Eldest, then Goldberry's mother must be younger, so Goldberry is therefore also younger.
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10If Tom is eldest, he is older than Goldberry - no matter if she has a mother or not. – Einer Apr 16 '14 at 11:34
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3@Einer - but is Tom the "Eldest", and if so, what does "Eldest" mean? Letter 153 says "Eldest in time" which has a very specific meaning in Tolkien: within the created world, but not outside of it. That means he's not one of the Ainur, who are outside of time; so one of the Ainur would actually be older than Tom, despite Tom's claim to be "Eldest". – Apr 16 '14 at 11:57
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The LOTR Wiki states that Tom is the eldest child of the Great Goddess, and that the river is a manifestation of the Great Goddess. Goldberry is therefore presumably Tom's younger sister. I don't how much, if any, of this is canon. – John Rennie Apr 16 '14 at 11:59
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9@JohnRennie - how about "none of it"? There isn't even a "Great Goddess" in any of Tolkien's writings. Pure fabrication. – Apr 16 '14 at 11:59
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2@JimmyShelter: I agree. All I'm saying is, that it does not matter if Goldberry had a mother. "Eldest" means "older than anyone" that already includes Goldberry. Tom is no part of the original design of Eru Iluvatar. At least he's neither mentioned in the Ainulindale nor in the Valaquenta. He is not from this creation-line. – Einer Apr 16 '14 at 12:13
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2@JimmyShelter: I suspected as much :-) That's why I made no mention of it in my answer. – John Rennie Apr 16 '14 at 12:42
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@Einer Yes. Perhaps I lack subtlety of understanding, but "Tom is Eldest" means one thing to me, unequivocally... and that is why Jimmy's answer is right. IMHO ;o) of course. – Ellie Kesselman Apr 17 '14 at 08:44
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1@FeralOink: Of course he's right that Tom is older than Goldberry. IMHO he could be even older than Eru Iluvatar. But once its settled that he is eldest, it doesn't matter if Goldberry has a mother, a silk scarf, a goat or none of that: She is younger. IMHO of course! ;-) – Einer Apr 17 '14 at 12:14
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@Einer: Letter 153 says "Eldest in time", which means that Tom's origins go back to the creation, but not before it. He's not older than Iluvatar and he's not older than the Ainur. Goldberry, however, we just assume that she's a river-spirit, but if she's one of the Ainur, then she's older. This isn't a contradiction: Tom can still be "Eldest in time" in such a circumstance. Now, I don't think that's likely (re: Goldberry), I'm just providing an example of how Tom can be "Eldest" and yet have people older than him (Gandalf is another who's older than Tom). – Apr 17 '14 at 12:58
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@JimmyShelter: As I argued before, Tom stems not from the Eru Iluvatar creation-line. He is not bound to the laws of magic or physics of this universe (e.g. can do with the ring whatever he pleases - even Gandalf cant do that!). He is an alien to this whole creation of Iluvatar. I'm not saying he is but he might be older than Gandalf. [This leads too far but... I mean, his name is "Tom", short for "Thomas" (like the apostle) from aramaic "te'oma" - that's not a middle Earth name... There is no aramaic in middle earth! It's a name of our universe!] – Einer Apr 17 '14 at 14:50
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@Einer: Since we're wildly speculating, maybe Bombadil is Tolkien, written into his own story. That is why 1) he is oldest; 2) the One Ring has no power over him; and 3) he can't be trusted with the One Ring. (Maybe #3 is a self-deprecating inside joke?) – dmm Dec 30 '14 at 22:23
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@dmm Definitely not Tolkien. He was invented before The Lord of the Rings but Tolkien didn't write himself into the story. That besides Tolkien stated that he's most like Faramir but without the courage. That doesn't mean he IS Faramir, however. – Pryftan Jan 12 '18 at 01:46
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Ah Bombadil. Unfortunately I do not have the precise reference to hand, but I recall reading an essay by Tolkien (was it Tree and Leaf?) at some point where he said that Bombadil is poorly explained in LotR, because he is part of the mystery aspect. He is poorly explained because there is much about the world around us that is poorly explained. This is also part of why the One Ring has no effect on him: Bombadil is outside of its domain entirely.
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1It is my personal opinion, based on no critical evidence at all, that Bombadil is in fact, Eru, come to dwell among his people. Not only is he Eldest, but his answer to Frodo's question "Who are you?" reads like a mini-sermon on YHWH's answer to Moses asking a very similar question. – Kumoyuki Apr 16 '14 at 22:12
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1See http://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/46928/1430 for details, but Tolkien was explicit that T.B. is not Eru; far from being outside the domain of the world entirely, he is a sort of spirit of the countryside. – J. C. Salomon Jan 27 '15 at 23:58
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"A Maia gone native" is one explanation of Bombadil. (per Robert Foster The Complete Guide to Middle Earth) – KorvinStarmast Sep 24 '15 at 19:27
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Goldberry is daughter of the River woman and "Tom was here before the rivers". I think that settles it.
Joe C
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