44

Is it possible for the enemies of the Wall (wildlings etc) to light a fire so big that it will melt the Wall?

Gallifreyan
  • 20,473
  • 6
  • 103
  • 164
Shevliaskovic
  • 27,468
  • 21
  • 155
  • 188
  • I recall in one of the books a member of the Night's Watch mentioned a Wildling warrior who had melted/dug a tunnel partway through the Wall before being discovered. – RobertF Apr 09 '14 at 15:28
  • 12
    Maybe a dragon? – Paul D. Waite Apr 09 '14 at 15:53
  • Aliens? puts hands up – Marriott81 Apr 10 '14 at 08:25
  • I recall the book says the wall is magical and cannot be melted.. – code ninja Apr 10 '14 at 12:54
  • 1
    @matejkramny The wall is magical, but there is nothing that says it cannot be melted. In fact, we see it melting on the surface, and also there is no one alive with knowledge of the magical nature of the wall that can say it cannot melt. – TLP Apr 10 '14 at 14:03
  • If they could unite to do such a thing, they also probably could unite to take the Wall via standard methods. How about catapults? It's not the Roman Army here ^^ – Kheldar Apr 10 '14 at 20:26
  • 3
    This isn't an answer to your actual question, but something to keep in mind: the true purpose of the Wall is implied NOT to be keeping Wildlings out, but Others and their wights (something the current Crows seem to have forgotten! Wildlings aren't the actual enemy). The magic from the Wall prevents Others from crossing it, and they seem to fear fire. So it doesn't matter all that much whether it can be melted with fire, because Others would never try it. – Andres F. Apr 23 '14 at 22:38
  • 2
    @PaulD.Waite your prophecy has come true – Goose Aug 28 '17 at 03:23
  • 4
    @Goose: I’m gonna go to a big party to celebrate. Who wants to come three-eyed raving? – Paul D. Waite Aug 28 '17 at 11:32

6 Answers6

96

Let's run the numbers:

So:

  • A 100m section of wall would contain about 213*50*100*1000 = about 1 billion kg of ice.
  • Burning 1 kg of wood can melt (at 70% efficiency) about 30 kg of ice.
  • Which means you'd need to burn about 2500 fully grown trees

In practice, efficiency would be lower, but you wouldn't need to melt the entire wall section to make it collapse. OTOH, the melting water as well as partial collapses would tend to extinguish the fire.

Given a force of many thousands of wildlings, as well as giants and Mammoths, it seems doable. But it would be a massive effort requiring many days, and giving the Night's Watch ample warning (via a gigantic smoke cloud, even if there were no patrols) and time for countermeasures.

Simply digging a tunnel would seem to be an easier and quicker alternative.

Michael Borgwardt
  • 17,650
  • 2
  • 71
  • 90
  • On the other hand, 2500 oak trees piled against the wall and set afire would be a threat the Watch would have to respond to, all the better for it to be on a remote section of the wall. Even if the only feasible response the watch has is to stand back and wait for the fire to extinguish itself from the wall runoff, they would have to guard the damaged section of the wall until repaired as well as clear away the piled up, sodden logs (so they don't dry out and just get re-lit). Given the ease of such a distraction, it's kind of a wonder the wildlings have let the wall stand for so long... – Dacio Apr 09 '14 at 16:20
  • 2
    @Dacio - I thought it was implied the Wildlings are content to dwell north of the wall, aside from the occasional raiding party which can scale the wall. Of course that changes when the White Walkers become a threat... – RobertF Apr 09 '14 at 16:28
  • @RobertF Perhaps true, but they also raid south of the wall fairly continuously. How much easier would that be with gaping holes in the wall? – Dacio Apr 09 '14 at 16:32
  • @Dacio: I don't think you're quite appreciating what an enormous amount 35,000 tonnes of wood really is. We're talking about something like a stack of tree trunks maybe 50 meters (≈ 150 feet) high and 100 to 150 meters wide stacked against the wall -- taller than a 10-story building, and likely wider too. They'd have to clearcut a significant area of forest around the pile just to collect all that wood, and just gathering it all into a pile would be a major engineering effort in itself. Doable? Maybe, given enough time and workers. Easy? No way in hell. – Ilmari Karonen Apr 09 '14 at 17:19
  • 1
    While that's very true, the point stands that a wall made of ice is much more vulnerable than if it were of a material with a higher melting point. The wall being 300 miles long, it is impossible to defend it all with the numbers the Watch has at its disposal. Being able to light a fire and escape before being discovered, thus wearing it down over time, is a serious flaw. Given the frequency of wildling raids, it seems the lack of fire attacks is a glaring omission, in hindsight, especially considering the usefulness of such a diversion before a main attack. – Dacio Apr 09 '14 at 18:12
  • 30
    2500 trees would also feels like it should be plenty of wood to build nice scaffolding and luxurious staircases on both sides of the well. – RemcoGerlich Apr 09 '14 at 19:11
  • 12
    There is a point in the Wall being made of ice: The Others cannot use fire. – TLP Apr 09 '14 at 21:30
  • 7
    This reminded me so much of a what-if XKCD article. – asteri Apr 09 '14 at 23:07
  • It would be alot more than you calculated, because, 1.) The ice is probably going to be colder than right around 0 C, and 2.) Most of the heat from the fire wont be focused sideways. Two thirds of the heat radiating sideways will be not at the wall, and most of the heat will be from the top of the fire. – James Christopher Apr 10 '14 at 00:39
  • 1
    @JamesChristopher: correct, but I mentioned both of these points. It was really meant as a lower bound calculation. – Michael Borgwardt Apr 10 '14 at 07:02
  • @JeffGohlke: Thanks, I take that as a huge compliment :) – Michael Borgwardt Apr 10 '14 at 15:09
  • Holy shlt, 57 upvotes, gotta be a record – TLP Apr 10 '14 at 20:36
  • @TLP: it's not even in the top 50, highest voted answer on Scifi.SE is http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/1520/in-what-order-should-the-star-wars-movies-be-watched/1525#1525 – Michael Borgwardt Apr 10 '14 at 21:03
  • @MichaelBorgwardt - Well we have our marching orders then! **starts coding SE voting bots** – System Down Apr 10 '14 at 21:31
  • "in practice, efficiency would be lower". Yes, because you'd be relying on radiant sideways heat unless you build a tunnel under the wall to house the fire. Heat travels up, so you'd probably be getting about 30% efficiency as a WAG out of the fire, so quadruple your requirements. (Or more, as a fire will lose heat as it consumes itself). – JohnP Apr 10 '14 at 22:34
  • 2
    But does magic ice have the same heat of fusion as mundane ice? – sjl Apr 11 '14 at 01:47
  • @MichaelBorgwardt - But you got that many votes in just one day, though! – James Christopher Apr 11 '14 at 04:01
  • @MichaelBorgwardt Its certainly a record in these tags! – TLP Apr 12 '14 at 13:05
12

It should be. In the very first sentences of the first book GRRM writes that the wall "was weeping", that is, it was dropping water from the ice. This means that during the Great Summer the ambient temperature is really near to the water melting point (0C).

A different question is if the Night Watch would allow it.

A third point would be that melting the wall in part will cause water enough to kill the fire!

Doktor J
  • 105
  • 4
Envite
  • 4,671
  • 3
  • 24
  • 35
  • I just took an ice cube and held it near to a candles fire. It is still burning. I am sure with enough wood you can create a fire in a way that it still melts the ice while the water is flowing elsewhere. – PlasmaHH Apr 10 '14 at 08:50
6

With the release of the latest episode, the answer now appears to be yes.

Wall being melted

In Season 7, Episode 7, with the help of an undead dragon, the wall has been melted.

The discussion on if the dragon was breathing fire is discussed below.

Was it Ice or Fire?

One plausible counter argument you could make, is that fire didn't destroy the wall, but rather the magic of the Dragon Fire and/or Night King himself. The wall was created by magic (the details are uncertain), and you could argue it takes magic to destroy magic.

Goose
  • 1,132
  • 1
  • 11
  • 17
  • 3
    Now we can use the numbers from an earlier answer to do physics calculations and determine how many joules of energy are in dragon fire. Gah, this sounds like a question for XKCD. – RichS Aug 28 '17 at 19:21
  • It's still debatable as to whether the dragon's breathing fire or something else. Says the guy who has the second highest answer to the linked question, with this as the central point, as of right now. –  Aug 29 '17 at 00:25
4

Yes, no, but.

There are good answers on if it, as it stands, would be feasible. One point though is that a ice-construction like the wall would not remain with that shape. Put simply it would become more like a big heap of ice as the weight of the wall forces the construction to widen making it a slope of ice rather then a wall. A big one, but still.

From what I know there is no maintenance crew making sure the walls are steep etc. so in other words other forces has to be at work for it even to be standing as it is. As such once have to take into account that the wall itself is under some sort of protection or time-warp-anomaly.

By which the melting by fire also might prove futile.

enter image description here

enter image description here

user13500
  • 1,191
  • 7
  • 18
  • 1
    I think it's been stated that Brandon the Builder used some mystical elements when he designed/built the Wall in the first place, which could be why it's maintained it's shape for so long. – Monty129 Apr 23 '14 at 23:00
  • 1
    @Monty129: Yes, also read that somewhere, and meant it indirectly, as such my point was that if it is protected from deforming then perhaps from (truly) melting as well ... even with a big "bonfire". As in it was not only built with, but also protected with mysticismical à la magic. – user13500 Apr 28 '14 at 16:16
3

Why not?

There are tunnels through the wall so we know that the wall isnt indestructable.

So, if the wildings could get enough raw material ( Wood, oil etc ) to the wall and they could light a fire and keep it going for a few days they could start making dents in the wall. I dont think that the entire wall could be melted but a hole through a wall could deff be done if done in secrecy.

Most of the rangers are dead. Only 3 forts on the wall are operable ( barely ) and the Black Brothers are very few in numbers.

Cherubel
  • 9,250
  • 5
  • 39
  • 89
  • "if done in secrecy" is the key point. A fire big enough to do reasonable damage to the wall would be noticed quite easily. – Kevin Apr 09 '14 at 14:22
  • 7
    Most of the rangers are dead. Only 3 forts on the wall are operable ( barely ) and the Black Brothers are very few in numbers. - This opinion is dependent on which book you're on – ediblecode Apr 09 '14 at 16:10
  • 1
    @danrhul But it has been more or less true for decades. The Watch was dwindling long before the start of AGOT, and the wildlings, we learn, vastly outnumber them. That situation doesn't arise ahem over night. – Dacio Apr 09 '14 at 16:23
  • 2
    @Dacio Of course, but it's worth noting. The window of opportunity to attempt something like this is fairly small in the timeline of Westeros (a few hundred years) and there's also a pretty good reason current wildlings wouldn't want to melt down the wall – ediblecode Apr 09 '14 at 16:26
  • 1
    “There are tunnels through the wall so we know that the wall isnt indestructable.” Or the tunnels have been there since the wall’s construction. – Paul D. Waite Jul 31 '14 at 09:35
0

As far as I know, (no sources at the moment, sorry) the wall is magically protected against melting completely, but partly the ice can melt ("The wall is weeping" from the prolog from the first book)

Kevin
  • 30,824
  • 13
  • 124
  • 163
arc_lupus
  • 1,289
  • 14
  • 26
  • 5
    weeping. "Whining" makes no sense. – Nick Matteo Apr 09 '14 at 15:43
  • Magic only lasts until some other magic comes along. Who knows what will happen to the wall in Book 12. (semi- smiley) – Carl Witthoft Apr 09 '14 at 20:32
  • @kundor: but kind of cute though :) Like a tantrum. – user13500 Apr 28 '14 at 16:13
  • @CarlWitthoft Book 12? What do you mean? Only Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring remain; 7 books in total. – TylerH Sep 15 '14 at 13:38
  • @TylerH That's why the smiley. Just because GRRM says there are 2 books to go doesn't mean that's how it'll work out. Ya just gotta hope it doesn't end up like the Asian Saga series (Clavell) -- he died with planned sequels lined up. – Carl Witthoft Sep 15 '14 at 13:59
  • @CarlWitthoft True, though this case is the opposite; GRRM wanted it to be a trilogy, and had to add books to fit info in. I doubt we'll see an unfinished series, unless GRRM dies/can no longer write after around 2020 or so. I think the series will be finished by then; Winds of Winter is nearly finished. – TylerH Sep 15 '14 at 14:02