49

In the Firefly-verse, Western and Eastern cultures are mixed and many people inject Chinese into their speaking habits, usually to swear (a la frakking and frelling).

Can anyone with knowledge of Chinese speak to the accuracy? Are the actors basically cussing in Mandarin or is it a case of them making sounds that are simply a close facsimile?

Community
  • 1
joshbirk
  • 12,739
  • 4
  • 52
  • 74

2 Answers2

40

Your mileage may vary. For the most part the words themselves are used correctly but the pronunciation by certain characters (especially Malcolm Reynolds and Jayne) can be very choppy. By comparison, whenever Mandarin is used by Inara it's usually quite well executed.

Also, several of the phrases are more "compound" sentences rather than something that would actually make sense in contemporary Chinese.

This would be a perfect example; Jayne says 'Wǒ de mā' which (literally) means "mother of god". Although the wording is broadly correct, his pronunciation would be far more consistent with "what the hell?" which means that it's a total mismatch.

You can find an extensive list of Chinese phrases used in Firefly, their meanings and the competence of their pronunciations here

Valorum
  • 689,072
  • 162
  • 4,636
  • 4,873
  • 8
    That actually makes sense foj the characters to have different levels of proficiency in Chinese. – AncientSwordRage Mar 08 '14 at 23:08
  • 2
    Indeed it does, though I doubt it was intentional. They are supposed to be from an entirely bilingual culture, are they not? – James Sheridan Mar 08 '14 at 23:17
  • 1
    @JamesSheridan - Actually from the website listed, Simon's pronunciation is terrible, as is River's. They're both supposedly geniuses. – Valorum Mar 08 '14 at 23:41
  • 7
    Although also the two most closed / least worldly. Perhaps the Core doesn't speak Chinese as often or as well? It seems the "tongue of the common man" in the show, since it is usually reserved for swearing or exclamation. – joshbirk Mar 08 '14 at 23:46
  • @Richard: I'm a little confused as to why you directed that at me. I don't think I said otherwise? – James Sheridan Mar 09 '14 at 03:05
  • @JamesSheridan - Meant that education (or lack) seems to have no bearing. You'd expect in a bilingual culture that those with higher education would have better pronunciation – Valorum Mar 09 '14 at 09:01
  • 5
    Correct pronunciation is more likely to come with use than with book-learnin'. I'd expect this goes especially for a complex language like Chinese. Inara has had cause to speak lots of Chinese, while Simon and River haven't. Very believable for those characters and their history. – Stephen Collings Mar 14 '14 at 01:25
  • I seem to recall River and/or Simon was shown in a flashback reading Chinese while growing up. The implication to me was that Chinese was the language of the higher classes (like Simon and River), while English might be more common among poorer people (like the rest of the characters). – The Photon Mar 14 '14 at 05:27
  • 1
    Yeah, I don't think it has anything to do with being the language of the common folk. In the episode where Mal takes Kaylee to the ball, Inara is showing speaking Chinese to one of the "creme of society" older gentlemen at the ball. – eidylon Apr 10 '14 at 19:45
  • Where did you get the translation of "Wo de Ma" as Mother of God? My Chinese is rudimentary at best, but the literal translation would be "I of Mum" and I would tend to think of it as meaning "My Mother". – Jontia Oct 06 '22 at 09:07
2

It's mostly terrible. Mimicking phrases in a language you can't speak is incredibly difficult—especially if it's a language with a completely different set of phonemes and tonal qualities than what you're used to.

It's similar to when you hear non-English speakers singing English songs. Because you don't know what you're saying, even if you have the phonetic spelling written down as a reference, you're likely to screw it up when you try to deliver it naturally. You have the choice of, either:

  1. pronouncing it slowly, deliberately and accurately, or
  2. mumble through the line quickly to give a phonetic facsimile that has the appearance of fluency, but utterly butchering the actual words

For the most part, the actors seem to go with the second option, which is understandable given the context. Most of the phrases aren't meant to be understood by anyone. They just add color to the dialog.

But, yea, it's really, really bad, and most of the actors seem to know it. The intonation always feels slightly off, which is predictable since that's the hardest part for Westerners to adapt to.

It would have been nice if they'd received Mandarin lessons and shot part of the series in Taiwan, where they'd be interacting with Mandarin-speakers daily and hearing it regularly. Or, at the very least, it would've helped if they'd learned the Chinese phonetic alphabet. It'd have reduced the feeling that they were doing linguistic yellow-face.

But you really can't expect that much from an American TV show. At the very least, Whedon tried an interesting idea, and his Mandarin is reasonably accurate when he speaks it.

Lèse majesté
  • 15,306
  • 3
  • 63
  • 82
  • 5
    I downvoted because of "linguistic yellowface". Your views on the portrayal of other cultures in sci fi doesn't add to the usefulness of the answer. – Valorum Apr 10 '14 at 20:05
  • 2
    @Richard: Umm... that phrase describes the superficial execution of the Chinese spoken on the show. I.e. it's enough to present the "appearance" of being Chinese to non-Chinese speakers, but they're actually butchering the words with their wildly inaccurate pronunciation. This is something the cast more or less admit to in interviews, since their objective isn't to present accurate Chinese, just to add an exotic Chinese flavor. – Lèse majesté Apr 10 '14 at 21:14
  • 3
    Even so, to throw around accusations of racism is pretty unimpressive imho – Valorum Apr 10 '14 at 22:06
  • 2
    @Richard: It's not an accusation of racism or any kind of value judgment. It's a descriptive shorthand for a particular approach to cultural mimicry that is superficial in nature. I don't know why you're so hung up on that phrase. – Lèse majesté Apr 11 '14 at 06:37
  • It's very much akin to the same sort of accusations leveled at the transformer sequel. – Valorum Apr 11 '14 at 06:52
  • 2
    @Richard: If I were to say that Madama Butterfly is an example of Orientalism, that is not a subjective value judgment but the use of a well established term in literary criticism. Whether other people find Orientalism offensive or not, the term is ultimately descriptive, not prescriptive or judgmental. If you find superficial portrayals of other cultures offensive, fine. But I think it's pretty clear from my answer that I don't think the actors did anything morally wrong. In an ideal world, I'd love for them to speak perfect Mandarin, but that doesn't mean I'm calling them racist. – Lèse majesté Apr 11 '14 at 07:17
  • 2
    Deliberate racism is pretty rare among us geeks. Unintentional racism, though, happens from time to time - our social skills tend to be poor. I haven't heard of any Chinese people being offended by the use/misuse of Chinese in Firefly. Have there been any complaints? – Joe L. Sep 05 '14 at 23:27
  • 1
    When I show clips of Firefly to Mandarin speakers, the general sentiment is amusement instead of offense. It's like "Oh, look, these white actors are trying to speak fluent Chinese and failing! It's so cuuute!" Kinda like the same reaction you might have to, oh, say a sitcom that featured a horse that could talk. But with a weird accent. – onigame Jul 31 '15 at 04:32
  • 1
    @JoeL and onigame: I doubt there are many Chinese people who would be offended by it, as it's not racist and clearly isn't malicious. It's merely a very superficial and near incomprehensible emulation of Chinese.

    To me, it's a bit like the well-intentioned misuse of certain cultural traditions, such as the way many Americans use the word "namaste." It gives an exotic/mystic flavor but has little to do with the actual usage in India, which doesn't have any spiritual significance. I agree that it's mostly just amusing.

     – Lèse majesté Jul 31 '15 at 04:46