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Motivation

Let's face it, Tolkien wasn't much of a promoter of women's equality (to say the least). Thus there are no female characters in The Hobbit. The Lord of the Rings certainly has several (Eowyn, Galadriel, Arwen, Goldberry...) but that is within a multitude of male characters.

Now, there's a commonly used test for a film being disregarding of women's lives and place in society, called the Bechdel Test. A film passes the test if:

  1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it,
  2. Who talk to each other
  3. About something besides a man

Seems like pretty lenient criteria, right? Well, not really. It so happens that innumerable films fail it. It is somewhat less fitting for prose, since an author can write in the voice of a female character, describing her inner world, thoughts and feelings, even if she doesn't meet other women or talk to them. Still,

Question

The Lord of the Rings movies all fail the test. Does the book trilogy also fail it? And what about the Silmarillion?

Michael Foster
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einpoklum
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    As the Silmarillion is a mythopoeic Historical work, I can see people answering with 'This person is said to have spoken to this person this long ago' so you may need to end up emitting it in favor of the 'tales', in order to yield the answer you're looking for. It's a good question! it might just need slightly narrower parameters, perhaps limiting it to diegesis of his narrative works... – John Smith Optional Jan 25 '14 at 23:17
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    @JohnSmithOptional: Well, you could have female mythic female characters giving some speech to other female mythic character about how their race will fall, or how they must get the Silmaril, or not get it, etc. – einpoklum Jan 25 '14 at 23:26
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    @einpoklum 1- I'm not sure the question is on topic for SF&F, as the site seems not be aimed at the philosophical/ideological component of fiction (I may be mistaken). 2- You have my +1 for the thoughtful question anyway. I think LotR does NOT pass this test, and I've made my peace with it and decided to enjoy it anyway. It's a pity because some of the women can be pretty strong, such as Galadriel, which I think is the true leader of Lothlorien (and even gently rebukes her husband in the book). And Eowyn is pretty strong as well, though she is undermined by her pining for Aragorn. – Andres F. Jan 26 '14 at 00:30
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    @AndresF.: Galadriel is indeed the true leader of Lothlorien. Furthermore, she is the oldest, wisest and most powerful elf in Middle Earth, as one of the last remaining Noldo (if not the last not sure) to have seen the light of the trees in Aman. Celeborn is no match for her. Far from a sidekick ;-) – Joel Jan 28 '14 at 20:50
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    The lay of Beren & Luthien passes this frivolous test,& as for the statement Tolkien not believing in equal rights i don't think that's true. He was actually criticized a lot for putting women on pedestals – turinsbane Sep 11 '14 at 23:00
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    @turinsbane: Umm, LoTR is considered by most - to my knowledge - relatively misogynistic, with women occupying traditional gender roles mostly... and when Eowyn tries to break that norm, Tolkien puts her back in place: "And then her heart changed". Yeah right :-( – einpoklum Sep 13 '14 at 09:25
  • Where is the evidence that 'Tolkien wasn't much of a promoter of women's equality'? – tgrignon Mar 24 '21 at 12:31
  • @tgrignon: Haven't heard or read about any activity of his for promoting women's equality; or does his literature call for it implicitly or explicitly to my knowledge. – einpoklum Mar 24 '21 at 12:52
  • xkcd comic strip #2609 https://xkcd.com/2609/ from 2022 talks about the apparent lack of significant women in a context that could apply to either the books or the movies. It also links to a video that claims that The Two Towers might pass the Bechdel test. – b_jonas Aug 09 '22 at 08:56
  • @einpoklum What good would come out of mandating that every written work must include women? Why is it a good thing that a work does or does not include women? Let people write about what interests them, that's how great works (like Lotr) comes about. Trying to meddle in what is and isn't allowed to write about stifles creativity. To add, why is "strong women" good, and "weak women" in literature bad? Are all women strong? Are weak women bad? Should all women aspire to be violent brutes rather than loving mothers? Is it bad to be a loving mother and housewife, unskilled in martial arts? – Achi Aug 09 '22 at 13:33
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    @Achi: 1. This question is 8 years old. 2. Who said anything about a mandate? 3. A work which aims to depict a fictional world and ignores important aspects of this world does a weaker job of the depiction. Also, ignoring or trivializing women is alienating and somewhat annoying to many readers. Sure, one can overlook it, but it's still an issue. – einpoklum Aug 09 '22 at 13:43
  • @einpoklum I had it set to "hot" and not "recent", my bad. Regarding the last part, it's entirely possible that women just aren't an important part of the fictional world on the level of which the story is told (heroes, kings, warriors and soldiers). It's not an issue, it is very much a non-issue. Nobody is ignoring or trivializing women by not including them in a fictional story, they just were not fitting to that particular story in the mind of the author. – Achi Aug 09 '22 at 13:47
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    "it's entirely possible that women just aren't an important part of the fictional world on the level of which the story is told " <- No, I don't believe that is possible. As an analogy it's like saying that slaves aren't an important part of a slave-owning society. Now, sure, it's a fictional world, so the author decides what possible and what's not, but if they're basing that decision of a misconception of the real world, then they're legitimizing the misconception by decree, which is itself problematic. – einpoklum Aug 09 '22 at 13:57
  • @Achi

    "it's entirely possible that women just aren't an important part of the fictional world on the level of which the story is told (heroes, kings, warriors and soldiers)"

    While we could forgive this of classic storytelling (they were, after all, pretty sexist) I think it's not good for modern fantastical storytelling to decide that women are not important for a story about "heroes, kings, warriors and soldiers". I mean, it could possibly be the point of the work of fiction (a society were women are discriminated against) but if it's incidental to the plot, it smells pretty bad...

     – Andres F. Jan 09 '24 at 20:58

3 Answers3

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Silmarillion, Chapter 15:

And on a time Melian said: "There is some woe that lies upon you and your kin. That I can see in you, but all else is hidden from me; for by no vision or thought can I perceive anything that passed or passes in the West: a shadow lies over all the land of Aman, and reaches far out over the sea. Why will you not tell me more?"

"For that woe is past," said Galadriel; "and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, though still hope may seem bright."

Funny because they talk about Aman, not "a man", but pass nonetheless.

Off the top of my head, LotR (book) fails.

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    As soon as I saw the question I remembered this dialog and just couldn't resist... –  Jan 26 '14 at 00:08
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    IIRC, the only conversation between women in LotR takes place between Ioreth and her unnamed cousin, but as that's about Aragorn, it fails the test. – ElendilTheTall Jan 26 '14 at 15:47
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    Thank goodness there were no conversations between female characters where they pine for the joys of "Aman", the giant trees of "Aman", etc. :) – RobertF Jan 27 '14 at 15:53
  • Except the subject here was actually Fëanor. – Spencer Aug 23 '20 at 17:33
  • "There is some woe that lies upon you and your kin." Assuming that at least one of those kin is male, does this qualify? – Acccumulation Aug 24 '20 at 00:45
  • @Accumulation, I'm not a professional Bechdel judge, but I'd say that even if some of the kin are men, the fact that there are non-man topics of conversation here means it counts. – Jetpack Aug 24 '20 at 18:39
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    What is the woe that's being referred to here? It's not a man, is it? – Jetpack Aug 24 '20 at 18:40
  • @Jetpack. It’s talking about the Kinslaying, so you certainly could say it’s about Feanor. – suchiuomizu Mar 24 '21 at 16:44
  • Not only is the "woe" about the Kinslaying (instigated by Feanor), as @suchiuomizu says, but also the Doom of Mandos, in which Mandos foretold a pleasant collection of consequential woes for the Noldor. Although now one could argue they're talking about another MAN(dos) in addition to Aman, I would interpret the "woe" as the collective effect of the Kinslaying and Doom on the Noldor generally. – Rob Mar 25 '21 at 04:49
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All in all, the Lord of the Rings novels have even fewer scenes featuring women than the movies do, and the few that do show up (Arwen, Eowyn, Galadriel, Goldberry and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, and I can't think of any others that actually have any lines) don't actually share any scenes, so the Bechdel test goes right out the window. If there's no scene with more than one woman, the test fails automatically.

I do, however, feel the need to stress that the Bechdel test isn't some foolproof test to detect sexism or feminism in a work of art. It's a very specific test looking for very specific things, and is useful as a tool when evaluating Hollywood's overall approach to the roles of women in film (and can also be applied to literature, as we just did). It wasn't meant to imply any form of moral judgement, that a movie is bad or wrong if it fails the test. It just means it fails the test. I'm not saying you implied otherwise, but I know that discussions around the Bechdel Test often devolve into arguments that misrepresent the test, so it's best to get that out of the way.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan
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  • I agree! The novels fail the test even harder than the movies. Modern sensitivities are, well, more modern than in Tolkien's old-fashioned time, so the role of women is naturally beefed up. I do think it's worse if a movie/book doesn't pass this test (not the exact rules, but the spirit of the test), but yes, it's not infallible and it doesn't mean you can't enjoy it anyway! – Andres F. Jan 26 '14 at 00:34
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    I'm going to write in a scene in my copy of LoTR where Galadriel and Arwen have a telepathic conversation about Eowyn... –  Jan 26 '14 at 01:44
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    @Michael -damn shippers... :( – DVK-on-Ahch-To Jan 26 '14 at 02:21
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    The largest problem with the Bechdel Test is that many people ARE intending to use it as part of an ethical judgement system. Whether Bechdel intended it to be used as such being irrelevant, a large vocal minority are intent that it be part of judging the whether or not a director or author was ethical in their treatment of female characters. – aramis Jan 26 '14 at 10:40
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    Hobbit does have female characters. River-daughter Goldberry appears in the Hobbit. –  Jan 26 '14 at 11:27
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    @babayaga - no she doesn't. –  Jan 26 '14 at 19:04
  • Now that I think about it, weren't there any battle or flight scenes where two women were talking to each other? –  Jan 26 '14 at 19:11
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    Yep, the Bechdel test is a statistical tool, not something that can reasonably be applied to a single work of fiction. Which doesn't mean it can't be fun to do it anyway ;) – Christian Jan 27 '14 at 01:51
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    @Christian minor correction: the Bechdel "test" is not a statistical tool; it is intended to be applied to single works of fiction ("reasonably" or not, depending on the person.) The original (fictional) context tests individual movies to determine if one would consider going or not. In any case, it can be a fun/enlightening activity for other works, for those not intrinsically offended at the idea. If one starts to see the world with different eyes, it's a bell that can't easily be un-rung. – michael Jan 27 '14 at 05:43
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    I agree, the Bechdel test isn't foolproof. (Take the recent film Gravity, which fails the test in spite of focusing almost entirely on a brave and resourceful woman.) It is useful for detecting "Smurfette syndrome", in which one or more isolated women appear in a generally all-male world. The token female may be powerful and important (as with Eowyn and Galadriel in LOTR) but if she has no interaction with other women, chances are she's not a fully rounded character and the work is relegating women to a secondary role. – Royal Canadian Bandit Jan 27 '14 at 10:38
  • @aramis -- apart from Bechdel's fictional character in the original strip, who are these people using the BT as an ethical judgement system, exactly? – Russell Borogove Jan 27 '14 at 21:44
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    WHAT the Bechdel Test is / does, was never the question, so I really don't know why this answer got so many upvotes. – Engineer Jan 27 '14 at 22:17
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    @michael_n Ok, fair enough. What I meant was that the Bechdel test only allows meaningful statements when applied statistically, not individually. – Christian Jan 28 '14 at 05:13
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    @Christian The Bechdel test, as originally formulated, was spoken in a comic strip by a woman who was tired of going to the movies and seeing women only in support roles not central to the plot. As such, it's a heuristic guideline, not a fixed criterion, for films with meaningful female roles. – Avner Shahar-Kashtan Jan 28 '14 at 05:32
  • @NickWiggill Setting aside the commentary about the test, this answer provides information about the original trilogy beyond the "off the top of my head" response in the top-voted answer, which, imo, merits an upvote. – Beofett Jan 29 '14 at 19:26
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    @Michael You sound like Peter Jackson. – Möoz Jun 30 '14 at 21:10
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    @user11521 or "Why don't you call any more? In Valinor we talked to our grandmothers every day, if we had one" – OrangeDog Oct 09 '19 at 10:52
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I don't have a copy of the movie, or the book, so I can't verify it, but according to the comments on this page, it appears that "The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers" does pass the Bechdel test:

Red disagreed with the rating and said:

Are children considered in this? If so, the character of Freda (little girl who rides with her brother from the Westfold to Edoras to sound the alarm) and Eowyn do technically talk, and it's not about a man either. They talk about where the little girl's mother is.


Truan disagreed with the rating and said:

in addition to the above statement, the same girl talks to her mom about whether or not her brother is big enough to ride the horse.


Erik disagreed with the rating and said:

but they are reunited in Helms Deep, and talking to echother [each other]! Freda "Mama!" Eowyn: "freda!".

So this movie should get 3 of 3...

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Kevin Fegan
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    It's worth noting that when people get into "technicalities" territory, they tend to consider that "talk to each other" means "have a conversation, an exchange of ideas", and a guideline of 60 seconds of conversation has been suggested. "Mama", "Freda" does not really qualify as "talk to each other", in the spirit of things. – GreenAsJade Jan 26 '14 at 03:51
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    If a little girl counts as a woman then "the same girl talks to her mom about whether or not her brother is big enough to ride the horse" counts as talking about a man. – Rag Jan 26 '14 at 04:43
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    @GreenAsJade: do you mean to say that action movies can have 60 seconds of continuous conversation between any two characters? – b_jonas Jan 26 '14 at 11:05
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    Heh heh - it wasn't me that came up with that number, it's just a number that you will see if you read around about Bechdel. I agree that 60s is long for an action movie... but some arch-enemies gloat for more than 60s :) Anyhow, I would appeal to the spirit of the test ... I still don't think that "Mama", "Freda" counts as "this movie has a meaningful exchange between women". – GreenAsJade Jan 26 '14 at 11:10
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    Greeting does not count as talking about something - in my book anyway. – einpoklum Jan 26 '14 at 11:42
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    @b_jonas Are we still talking about that movie that comes awfully close to the 4-hour mark? ;) – Christian Jan 27 '14 at 01:49
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    If you're scraping around for single words of dialogue, between characters who get less than a minute of screen time in a 3+ hour film, the work pretty obviously fails the spirit of the Bechdel test. (One variant of the test stipulates that both characters must be named, and "Mama" does not constitute a name.) But there are action films with meaningful interaction between female characters. Aliens did the job easily -- and almost 30 years ago, I might add. – Royal Canadian Bandit Jan 27 '14 at 11:05
  • If "technically", it fails, then guess what, it fails. But if "technically" it passes, then it's "oh, but that's just abusing a 'technicality'." The rules seem prety simple: Two named women, who talk to each other, About something besides a man. It doesn't say how long, or how meaningful the "talk" should be. If a person's name is "Mama" and she's called by that, then that's her name. It's not like "woman in red dress discusses 'whatever' with girl in blue car". If the rules are not adequate, then change the rules, don't misapply them. – Kevin Fegan Jan 28 '14 at 05:45
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    @KevinFegan: If Peter Jackson wants to feel all warm and happy because his film might just barely pass the Bechdel test, he is perfectly free to do so. But the process of assessing the test makes it pretty clear that LOTR has a dire shortage of female characters. And "Mama" is still not a name. Any mother has a name which is not Mom, Mommy, Mama, or any variant thereof. They didn't see fit to mention the name of Freda's mother, and why would they, since she's on screen for all of 20 seconds? – Royal Canadian Bandit Jan 28 '14 at 09:21
  • @RoyalCanadianBandit - I don't know Peter Jackson personally, or if he even cares at all about the Bechdel test, which he may not. If he does feel *"all warm and happy"*, it's probably for other reasons that are unrelated. – Kevin Fegan Jan 28 '14 at 11:01
  • @RoyalCanadianBandit - Again, I don't have a copy of the movie or book to verify, but if Freda talks to Eowyn about where Freda's mother is, how does this *not* pass Bechdel? – Kevin Fegan Jan 28 '14 at 11:07
  • @KevinFegan: My point was that there are no special rewards for passing the test or punishments for failing. Jackson may or may not enjoy some satisfaction from passing, but I doubt he is so foolish as to think he has struck a blow for equality by leaving those 20 seconds of film in the final cut. – Royal Canadian Bandit Jan 28 '14 at 12:31
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    @KevinFegan again: I don't have a copy of the movie to hand either. (Freda doesn't appear in the book, BTW.) If Freda does indeed talk to Eowyn, this may constitute a pass. If your only interest in the Bechdel test is ticking off a yes/no for each film, you can stop there. But IMO it is much more interesting to use the test in a qualitative way, to motivate discussion of whether female characters play a significant role in the film. In this wider sense LOTR clearly has some problems with its depiction of women. – Royal Canadian Bandit Jan 28 '14 at 12:32
  • let us continue this discussion in chat – Royal Canadian Bandit Jan 28 '14 at 12:44
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    @einpoklum - "in my book anyway" - does your book pass the test? :P – PoloHoleSet Aug 19 '16 at 14:33