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In all other Star Trek series the chief engineer is a Lieutenant or higher

And yet in DS9, a huge installation, the most senior engineer is a Senior Chief Petty Officer, seemingly outranked by everyone, even Nog once he stops being a cadet and receives the rank of ensign:

Why is this? I know that O'Brien's rank is a little unclear through 'The Next Generation' but by the time he arrives at Deep Space 9 that seems to be fully cleared up and the chain of command is clear; O'Brien is outranked by anyone with a name.

Is this because Deep Space 9 is a space station? But in that case why aren't all the ranks lower?

Mithical
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user20310
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    Not an answer, but in real life the difference between the lieutenant/commander grades and the warrant/petty officer ones isn't (solely) a matter of level. Chief Petty Officer is an enlisted grade: in other words, he didn't go to officer school (presumably, Starfleet Academy). In the army, he'd be a sergeant-major. – Daniel Roseman Dec 10 '13 at 14:28
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    @DanielRoseman - the point is, as an enlisted, he'd be not the part of the chain of command. A random 3d Lt could order him to do stuff, legally. – DVK-on-Ahch-To Dec 10 '13 at 14:34
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    The real question now is: why was O'Brien wearing command red in "Encounter at Farpoint"? – Xantec Dec 10 '13 at 14:40
  • And O'Brien presumably has a huge staff of engineers to command; the skills taught to an officer at Starfleet Academy would presumably come in handy for such a position – user20310 Dec 10 '13 at 14:41
  • Related (but not duplicate): http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/31524/why-is-miles-obrien-never-promoted. @Xantec - that should answer your Q – DVK-on-Ahch-To Dec 10 '13 at 14:44
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    @DanielRoseman - Going by USN/Army/Marine ranks, he'd be a Master Sergeant (NATO OR-8). Sergeant-Major is equivalent to a Master Chief Petty Officer (OR-9), the next rank up and the top of the enlisted ranks. – Compro01 Dec 10 '13 at 15:44
  • I think there is confusion in the question, while he is the primary engineer with a role on the DC-9. There is no indication that the positions held by these people are comparable. * Geordi La Forge held the rank of lieutenant commander and was the chief engineer * Miles Edward O'Brien was Chief of Operations aboard starbase Deep Space 9; Chief Engineer <> Chief of Operations – James Jenkins Dec 10 '13 at 15:54
  • @JamesJenkins With the admitted absence of a warp core are they not the same role? Head of all engineering personnel – user20310 Dec 10 '13 at 15:56
  • @RichardTingle, edited my comment with data from your reference while you were posting your response. – James Jenkins Dec 10 '13 at 15:57
  • Ok, Chief Engineer vs Chief of Operations, why would DS9 have a Chief of Operations whereas a starship would have a Chief Engineer. And what would the difference between the two be, would they not both be the head of all engineering personnel – user20310 Dec 10 '13 at 15:58
  • @RichardTingle - The difference between a non mobile station and a mobile starship, and the inherent problems between them. Once a base is established, the likelihood that a command level engineer is needed there full time is much less than a starship, so you may have a command level engineer that oversees multiple installations, with NCO's and/or lower ranked commissioned in charge. – JohnP Dec 10 '13 at 16:14
  • If you had a '2nd in charge' of a car as well as one for a caravan it towed, which would require higher expertize? The star ships are the car, DS 9 is the caravan. ;) – Andrew Thompson Dec 15 '13 at 17:29
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    O'Brien, clean the decks! Yes, sir, Mr. Alexander, son of Worf! –  Oct 11 '14 at 23:07
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    The out-of-universe explanation is that the writers simply aren't that familiar with the military. When did you ever hear real Navy personnel waffling on about "protocols" for example, yet it's every other sentence in ST dialogue. – Gaius Oct 13 '14 at 07:09
  • See also http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/60540/why-did-obrien-start-out-as-a-transporter-chief-in-tng/60546#60546 – Paul D. Waite Mar 04 '15 at 15:44
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    “yet in DS9, a huge installation, the most senior engineer is a Senior Chief Petty Officer” — it might be worth noting that when the Federation crew for Deep Space Nine was assigned, it was essentially a humanitarian mission to a far-flung civilisation (the Bajorans) coming out of occupation by Cardassian forces. It wasn’t exactly a big strategic priority for Starfleet. It was only the discovery of the wormhole that made DS9 more high-profile. – Paul D. Waite Jul 11 '16 at 11:29
  • I mean Deep Space Nine itself is second-hand — the Cardassians abandoned it, Starfleet are kind of squatting and keeping it running as best they can. Not exactly a prestige gig for an engineer. – Paul D. Waite Sep 29 '16 at 17:56
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    O'Brien is a Senior Chief Petty Officer because he works for a living. – Omegacron May 04 '17 at 18:45
  • I don't know why everyone is saying he would be a sergeant major in the Army. Idk how you guys are getting that. He'd be a warrant officer. For those not privy to the Army, there are 3 ranking systems. Officer, warrant officer, and enlisted. Officers run things and make command decisions. Enlisted are the backbone. They do the work and execute orders. Warrants are special in the fact they're supposed to be SMEs (subject matter experts) in whatever field they're in. They should be able to answer any question you have. The fact that he's called chief Obrien is ironic in this matter. – GroggyOtter Nov 03 '21 at 07:05

7 Answers7

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O'Brien isn't low ranked. He's simply an enlisted NCO rather than a commissioned officer.

On the enlisted ranks, he's second from the top, with only a Master Chief Petty Officer outranking him.

While any random officer does outrank him and can give him orders, only a very stupid one would ignore what he says. At the end of DS9, he has been in Starfleet for 29 years, longer than most random lieutenants have been alive. He is the voice of experience and someone who knows his job very, very well.

Compro01
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  • Of course it's all a matter of perpsective; I suppose I mean "lower rank than usual for the highest ranking engineering 'person'" – user20310 Dec 10 '13 at 16:00
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    In that case, it's that either Roddenberry changed his mind or other people just simply adjusted things without him noticing. Originally, Roddenberry had the idea for TNG that Starfleet would be all commissioned officers who went through the Academy. This later changed somewhat (e.g. the enlisted rank of Crewman sneaks in in season 4) and goes further in DS9 and Voyager, the latter of which has many Crewmen, going closer to a real life enlisted/commissioned mix. – Compro01 Dec 10 '13 at 16:20
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    The Captain may command the boat (or the space station), but the Chiefs run it. O'Brien is basically chief of the boat on DS9, meaning he has the final say in how things are done. – John Bode Dec 10 '13 at 16:33
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    @Compro01 There were Crewmen present in The Original Series very early on. TNG also had Crewmen mentioned early in the series run. And according to the listing of military ranks a Crewman's equivalent rank in the Army would be Private First Class. So despite any intentions Roddenberry may have had there is a precedent for enlisted men in Star Fleet going back to the beginning of Trek. – 22nd Century Fza Dec 11 '13 at 04:59
  • @22ndCenturyFza - That's why I said "Roddenberry had this idea for TNG" rather than "idea for trek". Probably aimed at increasing the perception of a more egalitarian system than he could get away with portraying in the 60s. – Compro01 Dec 11 '13 at 05:08
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    I had a good friend who joined the Air Force. He went to college, was in ROTC, and when he graduated he was a second lieutenant. He commented to me how odd it felt that he was all of 23, had graduated a few months ago, and had NCOs like Sergeants who had been in the AF longer than he'd been alive saluting him and calling him "sir". So it happens in real life too. – PopularIsn'tRight Oct 12 '14 at 03:06
  • While Miles O'Brien isn't the only enlisted person in Starfleet, him and Yeoman (later Lt Jg) Rand are the only ones with much character development. O'Brien remains enlisted, but Rand successfully makes the jump officer (difficult, but not impossible, in real life peacetime Earth militaries) sometime before Star Trek III. – Schwern Dec 04 '14 at 17:52
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    I'm a USN veteran, though I left in 1985. Spent five years enlisted and left as a 2nd class petty officer. I've spent many a watch with an ensign or LT JG in charge but everything was run by the Chief on duty. A junior OIC is usually smart enough to consult with the senior enlisted. If not, he/she will inevitably screw up royally somehow. Most junior officers do not go to an academy. They graduate from college & go through Officer Training School or took ROTC. In any case even the most inexperienced chief has eight years in the military, and they have to be really good to make rank that fast. – Generic Geek Aug 31 '15 at 03:02
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    Weirdly, Miles was the Tactical Officer on a ship during the Cardassian War. This is the same position Worf holds. So, I guess NCOs can be tactical officers? Field promotion? – powerj1984 Mar 05 '16 at 20:49
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O'Brien's rank is essentially irrelevant as long as there's always someone who outranks everybody else who can appoint O'Brien in charge. You might as well ask how Major Kira and Constable Odo can be part of the station's command structure, but not part of Starfleet's chain of command, or how Seven of Nine can have all the responsibilities she has aboard Voyager.

At any moment on DS9 Sisko can give anyone he wants a field commission, including O'Brien and later Kira. He can also take it away. The rules for field rank assignments are very liberal in any highly functioning military, requiring only obedience to a commanding officer and no ceremony at all. If Sisko says a noncommissioned officer is chief engineer and orders his commissioned officers to report to the chief engineer, that's exactly what they'll do.

Picard even makes an 8-year-old girl his first officer in the TNG episode "Disaster," and just in case you think that wasn't serious, recall that he also assigned a teenage boy with no prior experience to pilot the fleet's flagship.

AtlasMickey
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    Militaries involved in joint operations happen in real life and a command structure is negotiated. But you are right, Sisko could give O'Brien that position and order people to obey him. This would even make some sense as O'Brien stated that he had no interest in being an officer. But this would require Sisko to specifically want O'Brien rather than him being assigned in the usual fashion; but I can't find any common postings between the two – user20310 Dec 18 '13 at 16:55
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    Sisko: USS Livingston, USS Okinawa, USS Saratoga, DS9. O'Brien: USS Rutledge, USS Enterprise, DS9 – user20310 Dec 18 '13 at 16:57
  • Easily put. An admiral could assign him, or Sisko could recognise O'Brien's expertise and experience on the Enterprise as invaluable – user001 Jul 11 '16 at 10:35
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    The assigning of the girl to be his first officer in "Disaster" was clearly not meant to be serious... – Ham Sandwich Feb 14 '17 at 15:28
  • Apparently officer rank is not a requirement to be a senior officer at a Starfleet post. O'Brien was tactical officer on the Rutledge for example- in all other examples this role is always LT or LCDR- Reed, Worf, Tuvok etc. Being a senior officer means you outrank non senior officers even of higher rank- i.e. ensign Kim giving orders to, and being called sir by LTs – cds333 Oct 10 '20 at 20:49
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could be that O'Brien is a warrant officer and not an enlisted NCO rank. Warrant officers often are technical specialist, at least in the US Army.

Dave Oliphant
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In most military and even non-military systems, rank and position are two distinct things.

Although a higher rank implies a higher position or vice-versa, it is not necessary true.

The exact relation depends on the system itself. Inside industry, I have seen people with less than high school degree leading teams of engineers (being section chief). In the military, a Captain can also have the position of Military Unit Commander, but that position itself is usually occupied my a Major or higher (for my country).

Practically, the rank is given by the military system itself and your training/school in the military, while your position is given by job qualification factors. A Chief Engineer does not require or need a very high military rank in order to perform his job admirably.

Overmind
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Another thing to point out is that there is no money in the Federation, thus no pay checks. Someone who's interested in engineering, not command, has no added incentive in officers' higher pay.

gantoris
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    also there is Starfleet Academy - we see in 'The Drumhead' at least one other Starfleet member (Simon Tarsis) bypass the Academy (and thus officer-rank) and join as an enlisted man because he couldn't wait to get out into space and didn't want to deal with years of school – NKCampbell Feb 14 '17 at 15:52
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With enlisted men its more a matter of position then rank, while the chief was of a lower rank than even Nog (I think since he called him sir jokingly) but Nog's position was some low level engineer whereas the chief was chief engineer for DS9 (a position which would have gone to an officer if Starfleet Command knew how important it would become) so it was the chiefs position that gave him command not his rank. DS9 was low priority when it was started thus a commander and not a captain (Sisko), a rookie chief of medicine and a Petty officer for Chief engineer.

The thing about why O'Brien was wearing red and a rank was most likely do to his field commission from the Cardassian war and Picard just kept the commission until it expired at which time he became Chief Transporter Operator...but remember O'Brien was an infantry grunt and crewman who never went to engineering school but was promoted into engineering after proving himself during the Cardassian war.

Jason Baker
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Mojoblowjoe
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Chief O'Brien wears Pips denoting the rank of Lieutenant SG. It's entirely possible that he was given a battlefield commission, much in the same was that enlisted men are given them during combat.

Chief O'Brien

Federation Rank Structure Image

SQB
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Ivan
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