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If Tom Riddle had succeeded at returning as a living person from the diary, would he have been a Horcrux?

In thinking about it, it seems pretty black and white. Either diary Tom Riddle -- a manifestation of the diary which was a Horcrux -- would have been a Horcrux himself when free from the diary, or while, yes, a product of a Horcrux, he would not have been a Horcrux once he was free of the diary.

But, which would it have been and why?

For example, if one were to rip a page from the Horcrux diary, would that page on its own be a Horcrux? Or is a Horcrux always a sum of its parts? The diary is the only Horcrux, I believe, that can be examined like this. The remaining Horcruxes were all inanimate objects, aside from Nagini.

★ An answer from canon, any of J.K. Rowling's interviews, or Pottermore would be great. An answer given within the spirit of canon is perfectly fine.

Slytherincess
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    Couldn't this be covered by your other question? – Wipqozn Nov 24 '12 at 23:00
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    Since it takes a scad of power to kill a horcrux, does it stand to reason that the pages couldn't be ripped without basilisk-fang-gloves? Removing the jewels from the Ravenclaw crown would likely be difficult for the same reason. – Gorchestopher H Nov 25 '12 at 00:17
  • @GorchestopherH - I think that could definitely stand to reason, but I don't know for sure. The diary is the only Horcrux that is different -- it's a Horcrux and it's also a weapon. I was actually using the example of ripping a page from the diary Horcrux, and wondering if that page would be a Horcrux as a stand alone as an example of the concept of a thing being the sum of its parts. With the portion of the diary Horcrux that was Tom Riddle removed, would that removed portion still be a Horcrux? Would the remaining diary have still been a Horcrux? :) – Slytherincess Nov 25 '12 at 04:22
  • @Wipqozn -- Well, no. This question is asking whether the diary Tom Riddle, had he left the diary and become human again, would have been a Horcrux. The other question is asking, based on JKR's statement, how the present day Voldemort would've been strengthened by the sudden appearance of 16-year-old Tom Riddle. Horcruxes can have strengthening abilities (see Umbridge and her affinity for the locket Horcrux helping her with her Patronus) but is that the only way Voldemort might be strengthened? If not, then the two questions stand alone. :) – Slytherincess Nov 25 '12 at 04:27
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    @Slytherincess Since you can't subdivide your soul without the whatever associated with murder, it stands to reason that you can't split a horcrux and have both halves remain significant entities. If not, why not horcrux up a jigsaw puzzle and get 1000 pieces without killing 1000 times. Without delving too deep, the "Tom Riddle of the Diary" appears to me to be an enchantment on the diary, likely placed on it after it was horcrux-ed. JKR most likely didn't actually think that one out, sort of like the all-powerful Marauder's Map. The diary seems too powerful a magic. – Gorchestopher H Nov 25 '12 at 04:59
  • @GorchestopherH - Yes, that makes sense. So if Tom Riddle had managed to escape the diary and become corporeal, you think he would not have been a Horcrux? The jigsaw puzzle analogy fits -- going back to my diary example, if someone pulled out every page, one at a time, would each page be a Horcrux? I tend to agree with what you said about it being very difficult to destroy any part of a Horcrux once the Horcrux has been created. :) – Slytherincess Nov 25 '12 at 07:33
  • @Slytherincess Right, so to divide a horcrux into more horcruxes, the same requirement of splitting your soul has to be met. Still hard to say if this answers any part of your original question or not.... – Gorchestopher H Nov 26 '12 at 02:26
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    @GorchestopherH - I'm not sure! I keep going back and forth on it. To create a Horcrux, a murder is needed. If diary Tom Riddle had succeeded, Ginny Weasley would have been killed due to Tom Riddle's actions. That would have technically been a murder. We know a murder can split the soul, but can it split again a piece of soul that's already been split away from the main soul? Ah, I'm afraid I'm not making sense. I can't seem to articulate my thoughts on this very well. ARGH! :) – Slytherincess Nov 26 '12 at 04:17
  • @Slytherincess I get what you're saying. No one really knows how a murder allows a soul to split. This is one of those things that JKR is going to have to pull out of her hat in the future, if she cares to. – Gorchestopher H Nov 26 '12 at 04:36
  • @Slytherincess: Murder is not the only requirement. It also needs a complex spell. Clearly, Tom already knew the spell, but I doubt he would have tried to do it, because: A) It was risky - he simply did not know the result of splitting himself (an actual horcrux) again. B) It was imprudent - the situation was crazy, he was merely coming back to life - why rush things into making yet another horcrux? He can do it later, preferably once he gets out of Hogwarts. I'm adding this to my answer. – Saturn Dec 03 '12 at 06:26

2 Answers2

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Either diary Tom Riddle -- a manifestation of the diary which was a Horcrux -- would have been a Horcrux himself when free from the diary, or while, yes, a product of a Horcrux, he would not have been a Horcrux once he was free of the diary.

But, which would it have been and why?

He would still have been a Horcrux. The diary would, most likely, be emptied and have become a normal diary - I say this because, so far, we have never seen evidence of souls being cloned, only divided. So:

  • The soul could not divide (complexity of spells and requiring murder to perform the division)
  • The soul could not clone itself (no evidence it is possible at all)
  • Therefore, the soul could only move.

Move where? To a brand new body and leave the old diary behind. Thus, the Tom Riddle that is seen would still be the horcrux itself and the diary becomes useless.

To have a body means nothing: this Tom Riddle would have still been a horcrux. Perhaps, he would have become more powerful than the normal Voldemort (if only he had as much experience as the original): this "body" would share the properties of a normal horcrux, meaning it would be nearly indestructible.

For example, if one were to rip a page from the Horcrux diary, would that page on its own be a Horcrux? Or is a Horcrux always a sum of its parts? The diary is the only Horcrux, I believe, that can be examined like this. The remaining Horcruxes were all inanimate objects, aside from Nagini.

This scenario is not possible. A property of the horcruxes is that they are extremely hard to damage - if they are indeed damaged, then they "break" and are "destroyed" and no longer are horcruxes.

You should not be able to rip a page of the diary with your bare hands. If you did it with, say, Gryffindor's sword, you would be able to do it - and the horcrux would be no more since you managed to damage it.

To reinforce this, I'd like to say that it was unlikely that we could have ended up with two horcruxes:

Murder is not the only requirement. It also needs a complex spell. Clearly, Tom already knew the spell, but I doubt he would have tried to do it, because:

  • It was risky - he simply did not know the result of splitting himself (an actual horcrux) again.
  • It was imprudent - the situation was crazy, he was merely coming back to life - why rush things into making yet another horcrux? He can do it later, preferably once he gets out of Hogwarts.
  • Up to this Tom's knowledge, doing so would break his "seven-horcruxes-lucky-charm". I'd hate to have 8 instead of 7 :)
Saturn
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  • I love this answer! Thanks for taking the time to write it out. Regarding your first points, where Tom Riddle would have separated from the diary as the Horcrux and the diary would then be left as a non-Horcrux, as just an object. I'd point out that in order for Tom Riddle to free himself from the diary, Ginny Weasley would have to die; that would be a murder, and we know that Tom Riddle planned multiple Horcruxes from a very young age. I think he might have attempted the Horcrux spell after leaving the diary and having killed Ginny Weasley, but of course this is just a guess. (cont) – Slytherincess Dec 03 '12 at 18:38
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    (cont) Totally agree with you regarding the difficulty in damaging or destroying a Horcrux. The diary showed itself to be immune to water immersion -- something that would normally destroy a normal book -- and when Harry's dormitory room was torn apart by Ginny, when she was searching for the diary, there were no pages of the diary strewn about. Imprudent? Yes. Tom Riddle's purpose in life was to become immortal, though. I can see it both ways. Yes he could certainly wait to make a new Horcrux until later. JKR never seemed to set a time limit between the murder and the Horcrux creation. :) – Slytherincess Dec 03 '12 at 18:45
  • @Slytherincess: I still doubt he would have attempted the spell at that given moment. Riddle wasn't an idiot, he knew that something bad happened to the original Voldemort and he needed to research it before doing something as risky as yet another Horcrux. The only tempting thing about the situation was the fact that Gryffindor's sword was in the scene - he would have loved to make a Horcrux out of it. But then again, he can kill Ginny and Harry and steal the sword and escape Hogwarts - then do a new Horcrux with it in a calm place with a better plan. – Saturn Dec 03 '12 at 22:51
  • Of course, had he made the horcrux in the Chamber of Secrets, it would have been extremely tempting to hide it right there (the chamber was legendary, with a high-value in magical history, and secret!). But it was still too risky: if these kids managed to get into the chamber, it is very likely that other wizards already know of it. Making/hiding an horcrux there would be quite foolish - first, no doubt future wizards will come and explore the place and, second, no doubt help was on its way to the chamber. Too dangerous. Riddle needs to escape as soon as possible. – Saturn Dec 03 '12 at 22:57
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    All excellent points. Thanks for an interesting discussion on the "what-ifs" regarding Tom Riddle escaping the diary. It just occurred to me ... what if, upon fleeing the Chamber of Secrets, 16-year-old Tom Riddle encountered Albus Dumbledore? There's no way Dumbledore would've forgotten Riddle's face; I wonder what would have happened. Would Dumbledore or Riddle have killed one or the other? All speculation, but with Dumbledore out of the picture, the present day Voldemort would have indeed been strengthened. :) – Slytherincess Dec 04 '12 at 01:34
  • @Slytherincess: Dumbledore wouldn't have killed him right away: at the moment Tom escaped, Dumbledore still didn't have enough "research" to deduce (quickly) that this Tom was an actual living horcrux running away. Dumbledore would probably just disarm him and taken him with him (if, after some further research, Dumbledore discovers that this Tom is indeed a horcrux, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore would kill him at the end). It would have been interesting if Dumbledore tried to "reason" with him, but as he already stated in HBP, Riddle was already "evil" from very young. – Saturn Dec 04 '12 at 05:21
  • @Slytherincess: Now then, I don't think Tom would have attacked Dumbledore either. Tom was no idiot - he knew Dumbledore was trouble. In fact, to see Dumbledore alive would shock Riddle: it would mean that, after so many years, Dumbledore survived Voldemort. Such fact can only scare Riddle - to think that his original self was unable to kill Dumbledore. Therefore, Riddle might try to either keep on escaping or try to convince Dumbledore that he's good. But Dumbledore would probably outsmart him there ;D – Saturn Dec 04 '12 at 05:24
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I don't think Tom Riddle could have ever returned as a living person from the Diary. Riddle did suggest that to intimidate Harry, but he was lying.

As I explain in my answer to How come Nagini had magical powers , I believe the Riddle that came out of the Diary was an illusion created by the Diary Horcrux. The body looked real, and could fool Harry who did not expect anything of that sort, but it was not a living person and would never become one. The Diary used convincing illusions similar to the ones the locket and the snake Horcrux used.

Had the Riddle body gotten out to the word and caused mayhem, it would still have been tied to that Horcrux and would have perished when that Horcrux was destroyed.

Update: see also If diary Tom Riddle had succeeded, would there have been two Voldemorts?

b_jonas
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  • I do tend to agree that whatever Tom Riddle escaped from the diary might have been destroyed along with the diary itself. I do think that a full blown corporeal Tom Riddle definitely could have emerged from the diary - that's probably where we differ. If you read ch. 17 in CoS, it explains how he grew strong by feeding on bits of Ginny Weasley's secrets and deepest thoughts (her soul, essentially): "But there isn’t much life left in her: she put too much into the diary, into me. Enough to let me leave its pages at last." [Tom Riddle] He planned to take Ginny's life to recreate his own. :) – Slytherincess Dec 03 '12 at 19:06
  • I wonder if Riddle was truly lying just to intimidate Harry. In fact, I wonder if Riddle needed to intimidate Harry in the first place. I think Harry was wandless at the moment (not sure, but doesn't matter anyway), he was just a teen, who killed the Basilisk using a sword instead of any kind of epic magic (as Riddle could have expected after hearing the tales of Harry Potter defeating Voldemort). Riddle had no reason to be afraid, since Potter did not seem to be as great (magically) as the stories suggest. Riddle was confident - why lie/intimidate? – Saturn Dec 03 '12 at 23:03
  • @Omega - Could you clarify really quickly exactly what you think Riddle was lying to Harry about? Just the whole thing, about how he could come back via Ginny's thoughts and soul? And yes, Harry was wandless at the time. :) – Slytherincess Dec 04 '12 at 01:42
  • @b_jonas - Forgot to say +1 for a creative theory. :) – Slytherincess Dec 04 '12 at 01:43
  • @Slytherincess: b_jonas suggested that Riddle was lying to Harry regarding coming back to life as a normal person just to intimidate Harry. I don't think that's the case though. I don't think he was lying at all. Oh, and the fact that Harry was wandless just made things simpler: absolutely no need to intimidate a wandless child (just kill him right away). – Saturn Dec 04 '12 at 04:55
  • Riddle was lying about being a mere memory, as we learn in Prince. He never claimed he'd emerge as a real person: I take “leave its pages” as creating a magical body for the Horcrux, not as creating a person. What I'd like to know is this: when the Basilisk has died and Riddle said ‘[…] I prefer it this way. Just you and me, Harry Potter […]’, was he lying? What more tricks could he have had in his sleeve? I still don't think he could actually have cast general spells with Harry's wand. – b_jonas Dec 04 '12 at 12:55
  • @b_jonas: No doubt Riddle would prefer to dispose of Harry himself, so I wouldn't be surprised if he said that. He sounds overconfident - with great reason though: Harry was a wandless boy. Riddle had a wand and was getting stronger. Perhaps he can't kill Harry with Harry's own wand, but certainly there was no way Harry could overcome Riddle without a wand either - Riddle had nothing to be afraid of. Thus, no need to lie. Until Harry pierces the diary, of course... – Saturn Dec 04 '12 at 17:30
  • @b_jonas Didn't he actually cast Flagrante (is that the spelling ?) on his name and then transform it to be 'I am Lord Voldemort' ? I was pretty sure he did do that with a wand which would indicate he could use Harry's wand for magic. – Pryftan Aug 22 '17 at 21:34
  • @Pryftan “He pulled Harry's wand from his pocket and began to trace it through the air, writing three shimmering words: / TIM MARVOLO RIDDLE / Then he waved the wand once, and the letters of his name re-arranged themselves: / I AM LORD VOLDEMORT” There was no way for either Harry or us to determine whether he's casting magic with the wand or not. The Diary knew this and tried to appear stronger than he was, to intimidate Harry. – b_jonas Aug 22 '17 at 22:55
  • @Voldemort “killed the Basilisk using a sword instead of any kind of epic magic” is irrelevant. Riddle tells the story about feeding on Ginny and leaving the pages of the diary first, then he questions Harry about how Harry survived ten years ago, and then Harry kills the Basilisk. When he tells the story, he doesn't yet know what special powers Harry has. He sounds confident, but the Dark Lord always sounds confident. Just recall all his fights with Harry, and how he refuses help from his minions even when he collapses. – b_jonas Aug 22 '17 at 22:57
  • @b_jonas That's a fair point I guess but the way it's worded implies that he was doing it by way of the wand. But as you say the diary had that ability and so it would also stand to reason that it would allow the spectre (or whatever he technically was) of Riddle to use magic by wands just as he was able to speak in Parseltongue. – Pryftan Aug 24 '17 at 00:43