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In S01E10, we see Demerzel violate the First Law by

killing Brother Dawn.

Does this mean she is not bound by the Laws of Robotics at all, or is there an alternate explanation that allows her to occasionally violate them while remaining true to Asimov’s Robots universe?

StephenS
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    The Zeroeth Law applies here I suspect. "A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm." – Paulie_D Nov 23 '21 at 19:19
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics#Zeroth_Law_added – Paulie_D Nov 23 '21 at 19:21
  • Full spoiler here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Daneel_Olivaw – Dosco Jones Nov 23 '21 at 20:05
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    R. Daneel IS Demerzel (oh wait... spoiler) ☺ – Paulie_D Nov 23 '21 at 20:20
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    "if we assume the TV show will be reasonably true to the core story of the books?" - Also not a given especially the way they have butchered them already. – Paulie_D Nov 23 '21 at 20:21
  • The TV show is clearly not reasonably true to the books. – Ubik Nov 23 '21 at 20:24
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    It wasn’t her first murder. Earlier, she killed Halima. Other than that, she has allowed murders countless times by her inaction. Programmed to obey ruthless Emperors can’t be consistent with Zeroth Law. – user931 Nov 23 '21 at 21:25
  • @CrazyFrog She’s been alive longer than the Empire has existed, so she is (almost?) uniquely positioned to judge whether it’s better or worse than the alternative. – StephenS Nov 23 '21 at 21:44
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    The laws aren't a law of the universe its more like a chip architecture level design policy. If someone made a robot with components that didn't have those policies built in - it would still be OK to exist in Asimov's fiction - it makes it odd to pay Asimov's estate for robot stuff if they aren't law compliant. Which doesn't apply in this case because she's unique and not really in a proper robot story. – lucasbachmann Nov 24 '21 at 01:41
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    @lucasbachmann The Foundation books are part of the Robots universe, though we don’t find that out until near the end due to the … lack of robots. I was trying to fit Demerzel into Daneel’s Zeroth Law, but maybe I should give up. – StephenS Nov 24 '21 at 01:56
  • @StephenS The Apple series has a very specific set of things they have rights to - the details aren't public but that it is limited has been discussed. – lucasbachmann Nov 24 '21 at 02:25
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    @lucasbachmann in fact Asimov himself wrote several stories about robots in which the laws were either not fully implemented or where the programming seemed to have failed (damage? can't quite remember) or was flawed (causing the robots to misinterpret events so as to cause harm to humans without). – jwenting Nov 24 '21 at 07:24
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    @StephenS The Foundation books were retconned to be part of the Robots universe, several decades after they were written. It's not like those tie-in sequels and prequels are an essential part of the Foundation story. As for "near the end", if you read them in in-universe chronological order, you actually find out about the robot connection before reading the original books, because it's "Prelude" and "Forward" that link it all up. – IMSoP Nov 24 '21 at 13:08
  • @IMSoP Maybe I read them in the wrong order? It was 30ish years ago, but I didn’t see the connection until the guy who always makes the right decision met Daneel. On Luna, maybe? Sounds like I need to reread. – StephenS Nov 24 '21 at 14:14
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    @StephenS Most likely you read them in publication order, or even didn't read the prequels at all - they were among the last books Asimov wrote before he died. In terms of publication order, the connection was first made in Foundation and Earth, which comes right at the end of the timeline, and I think is the one you're remembering. – IMSoP Nov 24 '21 at 14:49
  • I am not sold that the show’s Demerzel is Daneel. I’m not sold that she is an Asimovian (3 laws) Robot. I’m not sold that she has mentalic powers. It might be all those are true, but the writers have taken huge liberties with the show and everything so far points far away from those possibilities. For example the Halima public speech would have been a huge gift on a platter to Daneel with his abilities but Demerzel was instead visibly distressed and outmaneuvered – Euro Micelli Nov 24 '21 at 20:17
  • @Paulie_D Oh man, I had forgotten who Demerzel was in the books. Now I feel silly asking this Q. – StephenS Nov 25 '21 at 04:57

4 Answers4

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Wikipedia states that Goyer noted in an interview that Demerzel is not bound by the Three Laws.

In the 2021 Apple TV adaptation of Foundation, Eto Demerzel is played by Laura Birn. In an interview, show developer and executive producer David Goyer explained that the Apple TV adaptation's portrayal of Demerzel is a robot not bound by the Three Laws of Robotics, explaining multiple scenes where she kills or allows killing and torture to occur in her presence.

That said, the citation they provide does not seem to include that quote.

I suspect that the idea is similar to Asimov's works, in which the Zeroth Law is formulated in a discussion between Giskard and Daneel, and their formation of the theory of psychohistory allows them to violate the first law in a more direct manner without their brains degrading due to having mathematical proof that their actions benefit humanity.

Goyer does indicate that he wants the audience to speculate on Demerzel's reasoning:

He added: "What I hope people take away from this episode is they're wondering did Demerzel kill Dawn because she was programmed to?

"Because she had to in order to preserve the Genetic Dynasty and he's an aberration? Or is a little bit of that payback for what happened in Episode 8?"

FuzzyBoots
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  • Or is a little bit of that payback for what happened in Episode 8? ~> OMG. That’d make her the main villain. Maybe, she isn’t bound to obey Emperors and she is merely acting. The Empire is literally under her control. – user931 Nov 23 '21 at 21:35
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    There is another theory that she is only loyal to the original emperor, this episode indicating that their genetics are not pure. – FuzzyBoots Nov 23 '21 at 21:57
  • Do we know that this series isn’t in the Robots/Three Laws universe, or is she applying the Zeroth Law? – StephenS Nov 23 '21 at 23:49
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    Two problems: 1. Giskard deactivated after applying Zeroth Law and Daneel is not shown ever following Zeroth law, too. 2. It's not possible to build working positronic brain WITHOUT three laws. In books it's implied that until Three Laws were formulated and hardwired in the positronic brain such devices were not possible. Hard to, without any spoilers, to give some info, suffice to say we know after 25k years no one was able (and some tried very hard). Only way to violate Three Laws seems to be the manipulation of the definition of human being, but that too is a very limited option. – AcePL Nov 24 '21 at 06:46
  • @AcePL: As I understand it, Giskard transmitted the circuits necessary for his telepathic powers, which are part of how Daneel was able to apply the Zeroth Law, now knowing exactly how it impacted the people around him. Asimov seems to have settled into the position that one cannot accurately model a system without completely understanding it. And without that accuracy, robots are unsure of whether they are making the right decision, and therefore their brains freeze up. – FuzzyBoots Nov 24 '21 at 06:56
  • @FuzzyBoots - True. But is it because of inherent uncertainty of Zeroth Law or because of the First Law kicking in DUE to Zeroth Law's uncertainty? In addition, Giskard cautions against abusing Zeroth with violating the First (of which killing is most difficult option - Demerzel doesn't have to kill to have his way here). Regardless, Zeroth Law is not elective in a sense of which way is better, so Demerzel cannot pick which plan is better for humanity (which we know are legion), so same uncertainty must kick in here. – AcePL Nov 24 '21 at 07:49
  • In the books Giskard diesd as he couldn't really live with the fact he used the Zeroth law to harm humans. However he said Daneel as a more humanoid robot might have a better chance of surviving harming humans - but he was still trying to find a way to know if a certan action really benefitted humans or not hence his support for Hari's plan among others. – SztupY Nov 24 '21 at 21:38
  • @FuzzyBoots - I just updated my answer with some thinking on the implications of the quotes you provided. In summary, depending on the nature of Demerzel, it either cancels out the Galaxia, or the rise of the Empire. This, in turn, poofs into nothingness everything after the Second Foundation and much of the prequels to the Foundation... Wow, this show is getting messy. – AcePL Nov 30 '21 at 08:24
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The TV show never mentioned Laws of Robotics. Given, the TV show doesn’t operate in Book universe (lots of things are different like TV show’s Clone Dynasty doesn’t exist in the books), there’s no reason to believe they even exist.

There’s also a possibility that some earlier Emperor (most likely the original Cleon) removed or modified the basic laws Demerzel needed to follow. Empire was perfectly capable of reprogramming her (positronic brain) because she has been nurturing clones and maintaining Clone Dynasty for hundreds of years. She was also programmed to obey Emperors (ignoring the S01E10 mess).

user931
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  • It's not possible to build functioning positronic brain without Three Laws hardwired into it. We know that because there were a lot of attempts, for a very long time. Also, in books, robots were banned from Earth's colonies and after a while even the word itself was forgotten, so it NEEDS to be at least hinted, from WHERE Demerzel came. It would be interesting to see how far creators will diverge from books. For now, there's so much crap in the show that I can't watch it (it's so illogical that it's insulting). – AcePL Nov 24 '21 at 06:54
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    @AcePL tell that to Asimov. He wrote several stories where that's exactly what was done. The robots had incomplete laws or misinterpreted the laws in such a way that harm to humans was not in violation of their programming. – jwenting Nov 24 '21 at 07:26
  • @jwenting - in essence, true: by manipulating the definition of "human being". But it was still not completely reliable. And this would be knowledge not available to any human of the Empire, not to mention any knowledge of robots themselves. – AcePL Nov 24 '21 at 07:31
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    @AcePL also by deliberately weakening the first law in one story to prevent the robots from entering certain radiation fields, and in another by the robots not realising that their actions will cause harm to humans because they've forgotten that there are humans on earth – jwenting Nov 24 '21 at 07:38
  • @AcePL Don't forget that events of TV show exist in the future. So, Empire can have ability to modify positronic brain to the core (if positronic brain is a stuff in the TV show). – user931 Nov 24 '21 at 10:19
  • @CrazyFrog - but the whole point is that robots in Empire DO NOT EXIST (due to custom of Settler planets forbidding robots, so ingrained it is all but an instinct). Also, we know from elsewhere that others tried to modify positronic brain to build one without Three Laws and it was found to be impossible. That's my point: if there's a robot, either it has no brain, thus cannot imitate humans or has one, but is constrained by The Laws of Robotics. Of course, nothing is stopping creators to simply declare demerzel is robot without The Laws, but this would basically destroy the whole concept... – AcePL Nov 24 '21 at 11:44
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    @AcePL The Caliban books, while not written by Asimov himself, were written with his cooperation IIRC. In those books, Caliban is a no-laws robot. – Leo Nov 24 '21 at 14:40
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While the books and the show are in a different universe there are some hints that Demerzel's real identity is the same as in the latter books

You can see that Demerzel's box features the Solar System, implying the plot of Foundation and Earth is still true in the film's universe as well, and her real identity is R. Daneel Olivaw, an ancient robot not bound by the Three laws. Demerzel's box featuring the solar system

This means that instead of just the Three laws, the Zeroth law is active in her as well allowing her to harm (and even kill) humans if it's for the best for humanity.

This is all in line with the show's creator's comments who only said the Three laws don't apply (but didn't say anything about the Zeroth law that usually trumps the other three anyway). It is also in line with the contents of the book Prelude to Foundation which depicted Demerzel in the books.

Also note that in the show Demerzel clearly said she considered her act fully valid based on programming as she is bound to serve the Genetic Dynasty, and therefore to a larger extent humanity as well - and killing a human to the benefit of humanity is a valid act based on the Zeroth law.

Whether an action is benefiting humanity or not is a hard choice however and there's plenty of discussion around this in the books, including Robots and Empire, Prelude to Foundation, Forward to Foundation and finally Foundation and Earth, and we might see more of it in the series as well.

Also note that based on these books we also know that

Demerzel is actually helping Hari set up the Foundation as she believes psychohistory would give him a way to know if a specific action she takes benefits humanity or not - a helping hand making sure the Zeroth law work. As she wanted Hari's work to succeed she had to lie that she killed Dawn to preserve the Genetic Dynasty. In reality she killed him as Dawn was threat to psychohistory: a genetically different Emperor was possibly not foreseen in Hari's calculations that always predicted stagnation in the Dyansty, and this discrepancy was a threat to the succes of the Foundation.

Whether this is the case or not in the show we might not know until future seasons (or never at all). All in all her actions are so far actions that she could have taken in both the book (where her programming is known) and in the film universe (where it is not yet fully known - all we know she does have some kind of programming limiting her actions).

She might have had a much harder time doing the killing in the book universe - although her reaction in the film suggest it was an emotional tiring thing to do as well

SztupY
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  • This is the sort of answer I was hoping for, but FuzzyBoots’ quotes seem to dash that hope. Do you have anything to refute them? – StephenS Nov 24 '21 at 19:21
  • Also, not to detract from StephenS comment, argument about Zeroth law is invalid, because ending the Clone Dynasty averts The Fall (or at least mitigates it). Thus the only possibility is for Demerzel to have no Three Laws at all. This breaks the plot big time, though. – AcePL Nov 30 '21 at 07:55
  • I like this answer, and I don't see that the other quotes invalidates it - A zeroth law overriding the three laws can be seen as not being "bound by the 3 laws", and we don't know that ending the Clone Dynasty would avert the fall or whether the consequences would be good. We will see later – Hans Olsson Mar 01 '22 at 07:50
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Technically, there can be no humaniform robot without The Three Laws "hardwired" into his positronic brain, because Daneel is the only one still functioning out of fifty two ever existing. While it's true that there can be robot without Three Laws, and we know that by subverting the context of the Three Laws, like changing the definition of human being or deliberately withholding some knowledge from robots, there are ways to make robot to kill a human being. But this doesn't apply here. This is direct action by the only robot it can be, who knows what it's doing, and that it needs to abide by Laws of Robotics.

Thus, if the robot in question is the one and only Daneel/Demerzel, and it is following Zeroth Law, there may be slight possibility. It's highly unlikely though, because there was only one known Zeroth Law observance in history, and Giscard deactivated after it.

Even then, Zeroth Law would be violated in this case, because ending Clone Dynasty would avert The Fall, and humanity would NOT come to harm from it. Unless Daneel/Demerzel is following his own plan (Galaxia), but this is very dubious at best, because even if Zeroth Law would supersede First, it still can be only applied literally, as a yes/no decision gate (even if process is enormously complicated in robot's brain). That is: I don't think Daneel can here discriminate between Cleo's plan and his, quantifying possible results of each and determining one of them involves less suffering and death, to justify invoking Zeroth.

My point boils down to this: As per Daneel himself, humanity is a concept and thus is inherently uncertain, thus every time it is invoked there is enormous risk of shutdown. And, in Giskard's words:

Use the Zeroth Law, but not to justify needles harm to individuals. The First Law is almost as important.

Which forces me to conclude that, barring other options (of which one will be genius, fantastic and will add enormously to the show, more of which below), in this case it would not be possible.

The point was made in other answer that Demerzel is a robot without the Three Laws. This may be the case for the specific plot in the series, but that automatically removes the Galaxia plot from the show, for the fact that the Laws were the reason it came about and they were embedded in the core being of Galaxia.

In addition, introducing robots, known to humanity as a matter of fact (ignoring the first core Taboo of the Empire), and humaniform ones at that, basically invalidates the reason Empire exists at all. It would still be half-sensible, if they were robots in secret, but that would also assume that someone is versed enough in positronics to reprogram any robot to remove The Laws (if my assumptions are worth anything), but that would mean that Spacers still exist as a secret Galactic political force. This would be a jaw-dropping and really cool plot twist, but depending on which Spacers would that be, it breaks badly some more story arcs down the line...

More obviously, if there are some Empire people capable of reprogramming a positronic brain, then they are more than capable of building robots, including humaniform. This in turn obviously begs the ultra-obvious question: where are the all-present robots in the Empire?

I am not disputing the quotes FuzzyBoots found, I'm rather disbelieving that someone would say so at all and pretend what the show is about is still Foundation in any way.

[Edit was made to remove argument that for positronic brain to work it needs Three Laws hardwired. It is not so, and I may have conflated the fact that just one person in history was able to build humaniform robots, which requires much more sophisticated brain (and no one else was able to re-invent his work), with something else.]

AcePL
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    I hope the next season would start with the backstory of Demerzel. They have already created huge confusion among us. – user931 Nov 24 '21 at 10:25
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    @CrazyFrog - not really. If it will be revealed that Demerzel is Daneel (which will be according to canon), then all is good and several questions are answered already. Except this one, of course. Zeroth Law of Robotics works only for Daneel, and even then within narrow interpretation. Daneel is known to build other robots, but whenever he speaks about Laws of Robotics, its ALWAYS plural and he always is very careful to point out every time the mental influence is exerted by a robot LAWS are ALWAYS constraining him. – AcePL Nov 24 '21 at 11:31
  • "We know that the inventor of it was successful only after Three Laws were formulated and incorporated into the matrix." Is that based on a particular Asimov story? He wrote dozens at different times, with different premises, which he gradually tried to tie up into a consistent canon. Is that story considered canon by the writers of this new TV show? – IMSoP Nov 24 '21 at 13:03
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    @AcePL The keyword here is "If". – user931 Nov 24 '21 at 13:05
  • You clearly haven't read the "Caliban" trilogy, which are canon in the Robots universe. Caliban has no laws at all. – Graham Nov 24 '21 at 23:46
  • Can you provide some text quotes and source on that assertion about positronic brains not being possible without the laws please. I'm not commenting on the truth value of it but it has been a long time since I've read the source if ever. And it makes no sense for me to research hunting for something you must quite familiar with. – lucasbachmann Nov 24 '21 at 23:47
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    In Caves of Steel, roboticist Anthony Gerrigel says “it would take fifty years” to develop a positronic brain without the Three Laws. Foundation takes place 10,000+ years later, so it’s certainly not impossible. – StephenS Nov 25 '21 at 01:02
  • @lucasbachmann - Unfortunately, I can't locate that right now. I am certain of my views, but can't back it up in any way, Answer has been amended accordingly. – AcePL Nov 25 '21 at 11:43
  • @StephenS - it is true. However, this is not the case in humaniform robot, which requires much more sophisticated brain and better roboticists that Gerrigel were hard at work as a team, for quite a while, and were unable to duplicate Fastolfe's work (Robots of Dawn). There is no way Galactic Empire could do it (no knowledge of robots of any kind beyond myths). There is one possibility who could, and this would be an epic plot twist if they do it in the show. But even then, it wouldn't be canon and my answer would still be correct. – AcePL Nov 25 '21 at 12:03