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When the Host of the West march upon the Black Gate, the Mouth of Sauron reveals 'Tokens' (including Frodo's Mithril shirt). At this point, Gandalf looks defeated. Did he think that Frodo had been killed or captured?

If he thought that the mission had failed, why did he decide to continue the assault on Mordor when there was seemingly no hope of victory? Wasn't this foolish?

Did Gandalf believe that Frodo had failed and that he had been captured/killed?

TheLethalCarrot
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TheMadHatter
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2 Answers2

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No

Gandalf knew Frodo was carrying the Ring. Regardless of what the Mouth of Sauron tried to bully them with, Gandalf knew that as long as this was happening, Frodo was in Mordor with the Ring and Sauron still thought it was with the host of the West. (Gandalf also would've felt the pull of the One Ring if Sauron had worn it again, kindly reminded by Ian Bush). In addition, the Mouth of Sauron reveals he has far less information than he believes:

‘So you have yet another of these imps with you!’ [...] it is plain that this brat at least has seen these tokens before, and it would be vain for you to deny them now.’
Indeed, I know them all and all their history, and despite your scorn, foul Mouth of Sauron, you cannot say as much.
Return of the King, Book V, Chapter 10: The Black Gate Opens

Gandalf shows that he has more information and knowledge of Frodo's belonging than the Mouth of Sauron, as he is aware there is one crucial piece of Frodo's belongings missing, that which is most valuable to Sauron. Gandalf did not have anything to fear as as long as they thought Frodo was a spy, Gandalf knew he was indeed still on his errand.

Further evidence to the Mouth of Sauron’s cluelessness is shown in his lack of knowledge of Frodo’s errand:

Or else his errand was one that you did not wish to fail? It has.
ibid.

This would again be clear to Gandalf that the negotiator doesn’t hold all the information, the suggestion being that Frodo’s spying has failed, unaware that Frodo’s errand is the destruction of the Ring. Again Gandalf has no need to fear any harm has come to Frodo.

With regards to the emotion described for the Host of West there are two important instances, the first:

No-one answered him, but he saw their faces grey with fear and the horror in their eyes, and he laughed again, for it seemed to him that this sport went well
ibid.

The first key point here is that “it seemed to him” [The Mouth of Sauron] that he’d succeeded, but as shown above he was gravely mistaken due to a lack of information. Secondly this passage doesn’t suggest that Gandalf’s face turned “grey with fear” but describes the collective group that had ridden up with him.

A later quotation suggest Gandalf’s specific reaction of defeat, however this may just be a trick of Gandalf’s to truly get his will in the conversation and find out about Frodo’s whereabouts. Or could be an issue of unreliable witnesses as we had seen at Orthanc.

Gandalf finally, asks the Mouth to produce Frodo, after hesitation Gandalf ends the parlay knowing not only does Sauron not have the Ring, but he also doesn’t have Frodo. Throughout the conversation, Gandalf continually proves for himself that he has little to fear as Frodo has not been captured by Sauron, the Ring is still with the Free People's and in addition, the Mouth of Sauron seems to have no knowledge of the existence of Samwise the Great.

‘These we will take in memory of our friend,’ he cried. ‘But as for your terms, we reject them utterly. Get you gone, for your embassy is over and death is near to you.
ibid.

Edlothiad
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    That's all very well. ....But this answer seems a bit fragile – TheMadHatter Jul 23 '20 at 06:11
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    @TheMadHatter can you elaborate? – Edlothiad Jul 23 '20 at 06:33
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    I have to admit I don't get the first argument in particular. In the first quote I read it as Gandalf simply saying he knows who the people he is are, and (this being the Middle Earth) their forebears as well. I can't see at all how this implies someone has the ring with them. I think Gandalf is all but sure that Sauron does not have the ring simply because they haven't had their asses thoroughly whupped by this point, and also probably he would feel Sauron wearing it through his own ring, but beyond that I don't think he knows anything about how Frodo and Sam are getting on. – Ian Bush Jul 23 '20 at 08:37
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    @IanBush, it might require a bit more context, but what Gandalf is saying when he says "know them all" is that he knows what the belongings are, who they belong to and their history. Since he knows all the items belong to Frodo he also knows they haven't found the Ring. He then later tests the Mouth of Sauron to see that he doesn't have "the prisoner". – Edlothiad Jul 23 '20 at 09:04
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    "As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they [the Elven ring-bearers] knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them" – OrangeDog Jul 23 '20 at 10:19
  • @OrangeDog is that more to your taste? – Edlothiad Jul 23 '20 at 10:22
  • @Edlothiad You can use the actual quote (and the fact that Gandalf has one of The Three) instead of relying on comments that may be deleted. – OrangeDog Jul 23 '20 at 10:46
  • @OrangeDog is the quote necessary? I'm more than happy to credit Ian Bush for reminding me and the quote provides little to the answer imo other than a confirmation of a claim. Is that better, refer to the user and not the comment? – Edlothiad Jul 23 '20 at 11:02
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    The quote is canon. It is the one I didn't have time to look up. Use it, after all I think JRR Tolkien is more of an authority here than I ... – Ian Bush Jul 23 '20 at 11:17
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    @IanBush I'm more than aware the quote is canon, I'm not using you as an authority either, I'm just crediting you for reminding me of the quote. But I don't see what use the quote has in the answer. I don't feel the need to back up every claim I make in an answer only those directly pertinent to the answer, otherwise I'd have copied out the entirety of the books onto this site in the past 4 years. – Edlothiad Jul 23 '20 at 11:34
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    I agree that Gandalf can accurately surmise that Sauron does not have the Ring, but that doesn't necessarily imply that Frodo is unharmed. Wouldn't the scene have played out pretty much the same had Frodo been killed in Cirith Ungol and Sam carried onward undetected with the Ring? Gandalf knows Sauron doesn't have the Ring and didn't know Frodo's purpose, but neither of those indicate Frodo is alive, since it may just be that Sam now has the Ring. – Nuclear Hoagie Jul 23 '20 at 16:34
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    @NuclearWang This is true, I guess. I try to address that in my final line : "the Ring is still with the Free People's and in addition, the Mouth of Sauron seems to have no knowledge of the existence of Samwise the Great.". That regardless of Frodo, Sam would still be able to continue, maybe this needs to be more explicitly stated – Edlothiad Jul 23 '20 at 17:03
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    Maybe it's worth noting that movie and book events are not in the same order: contrary to the movie, in the book when the scene happens, we actually don't know if Frodo would be saved by Sam, as it "didn't happen yet", we were left in a big cliffhanger. The spectator might assume that it's a clear No, but for the reader the answer is much less clear, we totally can assume when the mouth of Sauron speaks he tells the truth, and Gandalf too by extension. Actually the ring could as well be taken from Frodo and still on its way to be brought to Sauron, as the events happen in a small time frame – Kaddath Jul 24 '20 at 08:07
  • @Kaddath regardless of knowing whether or not Frodo has been saved by Sam, the knowledge that the ring is safe amongst the Free People's is still true regardless. There would be minimal time for the Ring to reach Sauron. One of the winged Nazgul would've been sent to collect it and it would've been returned immediately, certainly as quick or quicker than it took the possessions to reach Sauron. So while it's unclear whether he will be saved by Sam, and (as you say correctly) Gandalf wouldn't know Frodo is alive per-se, he would know the Ring is safe and therefore the Ringbearer is alive. – Edlothiad Jul 24 '20 at 08:34
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    He knows Sauron doesn't have the Ring, but that's it. Frodo could've fallen off a cliff to his death for all he knows (dropping the Ring in the process so they didn't find it on him, of course). He could've starved to death - mention is made of the Lembas bread running low. The Ring could've been taken by Gollum, who wanted it for himself and would have no incentive to bring it to Sauron. Or some unknown 3rd party not allied with Sauron, e.g. Shelob. There's any number of things that could've happened, the only thing he knows didn't happen is that Sauron doesn't have it yet. – Darrel Hoffman Jul 24 '20 at 14:09
  • @Edlothiad How would anyone know to send a Nazgul to collect it? Sending word to someone that could tell the Nazgul to go collect it would take just as long as sending the ring itself. And yes, the ring could have gotten to Sauron at least as quickly as Frodo's other possessions, but I don't remember any indication that his other possessions ever went to Sauron. Why would they have? – Elezar Jul 24 '20 at 15:26
  • @DarrelHoffman I feel the comment above yours covers this well enough. Any of those things could've happened at any point in the story. I might have some bias knowing the end and ignoring such unlikely events from occurring, but to save from being overly pedantic I simplified it. You can take "Frodo being ok" in my answer to mean "Sauron doesn't have the ring" if it pleases you. – Edlothiad Jul 24 '20 at 16:33
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    @Elezar Well they got to the Mouth of Sauron somehow, I doubt the parlay he conducted was without first consulting Sauron. It seems to be quite a simple deduction that the Mouth of Sauron having the Mithril coat, Elven Brooch etc... and threatening the Host of the West with it at the Black Gate suggests they were first brought to Sauron and that was his advice. w.r.t the Nazgul collecting it, I made the guess that an Orc would likely claim it. – Edlothiad Jul 24 '20 at 16:37
  • @Elezar --- Shagrat takes the mithril coat and other items to Barad Dur. See this answer. – Ian Thompson Jul 24 '20 at 22:10
  • @Elezar --- In fact the Tale of Years entry for 17 March 3019 contains this information. The answer I linked just shows that Sauron kills Shagrat for his efforts. – Ian Thompson Jul 24 '20 at 22:20
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If [Gandalf] thought that the mission had failed, why did he decide to continue the assault on Mordor when there was seemingly no hope of victory? Wasn't this foolish?

Did Gandalf believe that Frodo had failed and that he had been captured/killed?

Gandalf observed the Mouth of Sauron had equipment enough for one Hobbit. He referred to having captured one. There were two. He had the mithril coat, and a sword but it wasn't Sting. He didn't have the Phial of Galadriel. He only had one Elven cloak. Sauron clearly did not have the One Ring -- Gandalf would detect that via Narya. One Hobbit may have been captured or killed, or perhaps not, but the other could be pressing on. The Quest had not failed. Gandalf continued with the plan to distract Sauron from his true peril.

From The Return of the King, book 5, chapter 10, The Black Gate Opens:

'I [The Mouth of Sauron] have tokens that I was bidden to show to thee [Gandalf] - to thee in especial, if thou shouldst dare to come.’ He signed to one of his guards, and he came forward bearing a bundle swathed in black cloths.

The Messenger put these aside, and there to the wonder and dismay of all the Captains he held up first the short sword that Sam had carried, and next a grey cloak with an elven-brooch, and last the coat of mithril-mail that Frodo had worn wrapped in his tattered garments.

...

'Now, maybe he that bore these things was a creature that you would not grieve to lose, and maybe otherwise: one dear to you, perhaps?'

The Mouth unwittingly gave away that he didn't know there were two.

In The Silmarillion Tolkien tells us Gandalf was the wisest of the Maiar.

Lesser son
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    I think that more to the point - if Sauron had taken the ring, then he would have come forth himself to face Gandalf and company. The fact that he sent someone else indicates that he does not have the ring. – JK. Feb 27 '22 at 19:12
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    @JK. - That's certainly true. It's also true that Gandalf, as a wearer of a Great Ring would, just like all nineteen Elven ring wearers did initially when Sauron first asserted ring dominance -- see Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age -- have sensed Sauron's use of the One Ring immediately and directly. There would be no need for Gandalf to deduce the fact from behavior, and the question is about him specifically. – Lesser son Feb 27 '22 at 19:22
  • @JK. Well, I think he would still coward behind like he used to when he faced the Last Alliance, until absolutely necessary. "He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise" - Denethor. – Eugene Feb 28 '22 at 09:11