Treebeard: "I always like going South, somehow it feels like going downhill." - Is it really?

Question

In The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002 movie), Treebeard says:

I always like going South, somehow it feels like going downhill.

Is there a difference in elevation or something that can justify Treebeard's feelings, or is this just some random feeling he feels? Saying something like this sounds very strange unless it is somehow rooted in reality in one way or another.

I always assumed that is was a joke about south being "down" on a map. — Verdan, Mar 25 '18 at 16:17
@Verdan Haha, I never thought of that. I guess that makes sense. Disappointed that I did not get a 100 pages long answer about how this is somehow the work of the valars or something. — OptimusCrime, Mar 25 '18 at 17:44
@BCdotWEB Very true, but I suspected it could be different elevation or something from the point in the forest where they were, and that south was closer to the sea level or something. I failed to find a proper height map for the area while researching the question. — OptimusCrime, Mar 25 '18 at 17:46
@Verdan When I say going down, I in fact mean going south when I say "down", and my feeling of up and down relies on the map. — Narusan, Mar 26 '18 at 16:09
Scientific studies have in fact found that people tend to perceive southward movement as easier, presumably because of just such pervasive metaphors. Here's a link: http://journals.ama.org/doi/abs/10.1509/jmkr.46.6.715 — Kilian Foth, Mar 26 '18 at 23:03
just as @KilianFoth mentions, it is a common joke. Couldn't be more obvious - south is "down" on most maps. Ten year old article example -- https://www.wired.com/2010/06/north-feels-uphill/ — Fattie, Mar 28 '18 at 14:13
@KilianFoth It is just as likely that such southward preference is something to do with our own internal ability to detect the terrestrial magnetic field. I have no access to that link. — can-ned_food, Apr 06 '18 at 20:29

score 100 · Accepted Answer · edited Jun 16 '20 at 09:31

100

This was ad-libed by John Rhys-Davies, the voice actor for Treebeard

It is stated by Peter Jackson in the commentary track of The Two Towers Extended Edition that John Rhys-Davies would often throw in ad-libbed lines that sounded quite nice. This is an example of one.

Peter: The line at the end of this scene was an ad-lib of John’s, when he says, “I always like going down south, it feels like going downhill,” which was just something he threw into the end of the recording session that we did; but he often comes up with those really nice little lines that…
_{The Two Towers Extended Edition Commentary Disc 2 - Transcript}

However to answer your question of whether his statement had any basis:

The land does indeed slope downwards

If you rewatch the film, you will see that Fangorn forest seems to be on a bit of a slope leading down to Isengard. (Video below). However, that was not why Treebeard said what he did, as @Verdan says, it was merely a joke made by Treebeard given that South is at the bottom of the map.

From the video, at 00:43 you can see that behind Treebeard, where he has just been walking from, there seems to be hills and mountains sloping upwards. At 00:36 you can see that Saruman is down below where they are now, therefore there was some evidence to what Treebeard said.

In the books, there's no such line, but there may be some evidence for the above.

The Ents go on a bit of an adventure, climbing up ridges and down into valleys, Isengard is indeed in a valley (Nan Curunír, the Valley of Saruman) and the Ents did in fact end climbing down into the Valley.

“At last they stood upon the summit, and looked down into a dark pit: the great cleft at the end of the mountains: Nan Curunír, the Valley of Saruman.”
_{The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter 9 - Flotsam and Jetsam}

edited Jun 16 '20 at 09:31

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answered Mar 25 '18 at 18:31

Edlothiad

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This is certainly the best answer - it’s supported by canon. – Obsidia Mar 26 '18 at 02:57
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I don't think this is the best answer: why would anyone say "somehow it feels like going downhill" while actually going downhill? – molnarm Mar 26 '18 at 12:58
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@MártonMolnár you seem to be ignoring a pretty key point as noted in the question and the answer. The question asks was there any basis for describing it as going downhill. A: "Yes there was, they were indeed going downhill". With regards to the quote, it's a joke, as outlined in the comments under the question and again in my answer, and again in an un-sourced commentary by John Rhys-Davies. – Edlothiad Mar 26 '18 at 13:01
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@Edlothiad sorry, let me rephrase: I value your research and if we read the question strictly as "was he really going downhill", then of course it is correct. However, I understood it more like "why would he say that" like the other answerers, in which case a joke would not make sense if it was literally true - besides, we already know that this has an out-of-universe explanation. – molnarm Mar 26 '18 at 13:26
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@MártonMolnár In-universe, it was a joke. Out-of-universe, it was a joke. as outlined by noizetoys below. – Edlothiad Mar 26 '18 at 13:27
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How was it a joke in-universe? There's no indication of humor in the way he says it (unless I'm misremembering) and it sounds more like some inner thought he wanted to share with them. – Arturo Torres Sánchez Mar 26 '18 at 14:21
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@ArturoTorresSánchez what else would it be? While not necessarily a joke in conventional terms, it was a witty comment from Treebeard. – Edlothiad Mar 26 '18 at 14:27
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In universe — even in the PJ version of Arda, — why do we take for granted that Treebeard ever witnessed a map, much less had need to use one? – can-ned_food Mar 26 '18 at 20:05
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The orientation of maps with North on the top of the map is purely arbitrary convention. In various cultures the convention is different (e.g., maps may have no standard orientation in Japan), and even in Europe, maps were historically drawn with South on the top. I don’t see any evidence that the convention in Middle Earth puts North on the top, or in fact, that Treebeard knows maps in the first place. – Emil Jeřábek Mar 27 '18 at 13:55
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@EmilJeřábek I don't know if you've seen any of Tolkien's maps of Middle-earth, but they are almost always drawn with north pointing up. All except Thror's map were drawn with a North facing rose. As for whether or not Treebeard knows about maps is in fact conjectural from my viewpoint, however the Ents having wandered the lands of Middle-earth I would assume had to see some form of map and some point to make it back to Fangorn, having walked to the shores in the West and the mountains in the east. – Edlothiad Mar 27 '18 at 14:00
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I do, of course, know Tolkien’s maps, but they are maps drawn by our contemporary for readers of the books. There is no indication that they are intended as copies of in-universe maps. (What’s with the English labels?) – Emil Jeřábek Mar 27 '18 at 14:05
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@EmilJeřábek are you aware that Middle-earth is part of our history and that Tolkien's ancestor, Eriol, landed in Tol Eressea and is the translators of the works from the various forms of Elvish into Old English. Tolkien then translated them from Old English into English and produced the copies we know today from pieces of the Red Book and other Elvish texts? Therefore the maps would be as intended in-universe and Tolkien merely translated them. – Edlothiad Mar 27 '18 at 14:19
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@MártonMolnár It's a non sequitur.British humour features a lot of those (Monty Python et al). Being illogical is part of the joke. – Pharap Mar 28 '18 at 14:27
But remember -- not all maps have south at the bottom. It isn't right to say that those are wrong. Because no map is wrong, and no map is right, and all map is map. https://youtu.be/kwprznh3d-o?t=35s – Restioson Mar 29 '18 at 07:36
@Restioson I never stated any maps were wrong, not that all maps have North as up. As shown in Thror's map. However there is incredibly strong precedent that in ME almost all maps were produced with North being up. Whether the Ents had seen a map or not is speculation, but that isn't exactly the point of the answer. – Edlothiad Mar 29 '18 at 07:43
@Edlothiad just a reference to map men ;) – Restioson Mar 29 '18 at 07:51
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It was a dark day for Sci-Fi & Fantasy when this answer got a 500 point bonus. – can-ned_food Apr 06 '18 at 11:07
@can-ned_food Why? What is so wrong with this answer that it doesn't deserve a bounty in your opinion? – TheLethalCarrot Apr 11 '18 at 11:34
@TheLethalCarrot At this point, I guess the best I could recommend is that someone look at my answer for an example of what I think would be necessary. Also, I don't think that explaining the slope of the terrain has any bearing on the joke or why it was inserted at that moment in the film during editing. – can-ned_food Apr 12 '18 at 01:01
@can-ned_food the joke is explained in the first section, I then answers the OPs actual question of “_Is there a difference in elevation or something that can justify Treebeard’s feelings..?_”. Yes there is, in both the books and the films, the land going southwards from Treebeard’s perspective also slopes downwards. Having covered both in- and out-of-universe, I felt my job here was done, and so did the OP. – Edlothiad Apr 12 '18 at 01:48
@can-ned_food "This answer is crap and doesn't deserve a bounty, however, mine is amazing look at that." It's all well and good thinking you have a decent answer but don't take it out on another well written answer. Instead maybe look at why this one has 100 score and yours 3 and edit yours to improve it so it too would have a better score. – TheLethalCarrot Apr 12 '18 at 08:00
@TheLethalCarrot The French Revolution had popular support also. All the while beheading people. I'm not here to harvest favor. But, anyways, is that seriously how you read my comment? – can-ned_food Apr 13 '18 at 05:23
@TheLethalCarrot This answer appears to address the question, but it is an educated guess, and I have said — on my meta post — that it seems superficial: Based on the history of how the line came about to be included in the film, I think that any answer should consider both (A) why the line was first said and (B) how it was later decided that it would be inserted at one place in the film rather than another. While imagining myself as the editor I see it unlikely that any correlation was made between altitude and the line than that it was simply because Treebeard was going south. – can-ned_food Apr 13 '18 at 05:46
@can-ned_food Just because there's no correlation to the line in the film and the fact it is indeed a downward slope does not mean that fact is important to the film. As for why it's said in the film this answer clearly addresses that. Either way I can see we're never going to agree so I shall leave this conversation there. – TheLethalCarrot Apr 13 '18 at 07:53
@can-ned_food nothing in my answer is an educated guess. It's all sourced. – Edlothiad Apr 13 '18 at 10:34

score 88 · Answer 2 · edited Mar 27 '18 at 02:22

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Classically, south-facing gardens get the most light (in northern hemisphere gardens, that is). Treebeard is referring to being drawn by the increased sunlight coming from that direction.

Update from the comments: the effect known as phototropism (thank you Edlothiad) has plants growing in the direction of their light source. So the Ents would seem to be naturally inclined to head South, the direction of the greatest amount of light.

“For a photosynthetic organism, facing towards light may result in receiving more energy (especially if they have better / more light processing surface in the front). In which case, going toward tight will result in less net loss of energy per time, which may feel similar to using less energy going downhill. – Misha Rosnach” (thank you Misha Rosnach for clarifying the point I was trying to make, down in the comments).

For Treebeard, it would be a relief to follow his natural inclination to move southward, feeling like one were going downhill, rather than struggling against his natural urges, which would feel like going uphill.

edited Mar 27 '18 at 02:22

Tim

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answered Mar 25 '18 at 18:30

Broklynite

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This is interesting. For a photosynthetic organism, facing towards light may result in receiving more energy (especially if they have better / more light processing surface in the front). In which case, going toward tight will result in less net loss of energy per time, which may feel similar to using less energy going downhill. – Misha R Mar 25 '18 at 18:42
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@MishaRosnach there is a classical experiment where you have a lamp shining light on a bean plant and you can see the plant growing toward the lamp, and if you move the lamp, the direction of growth changes. – Broklynite Mar 25 '18 at 19:02
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This is called phototropism, there is 0 indication that that is what's happening here. Especially as growing towards the sun wouldn't make the ground he's walking on slope... – Edlothiad Mar 25 '18 at 19:12
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Yes but he say he's actually going down hill, just that it feels like going down hill. This could be an allusion to more energy due to better sunlight. That's the thing about the arts it's full of metaphor and allegory and other such devices. – Sarriesfan Mar 25 '18 at 20:37
@Edlothiad you make a good point that I needed to add more info to justify my answer, rather than just what was said in the comments, so I have updated my answer accordingly. I think the answer is stronger now for spelling things out. Thank you. – Broklynite Mar 26 '18 at 09:04
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Doesn't this imply a northern-hemisphere location? – Andrew Lewis Mar 26 '18 at 14:51
@AndrewLewis, exactly what I was thinking. In order for this theory to hold, there would need to be a canon source to verify that Fangorn is in the Northern Hemisphere :) – Benjamin Mar 26 '18 at 15:54
@Edlothiad and MishaRosnach: agreeing to disagree sounds like an excellent idea. – Rand al'Thor Mar 26 '18 at 16:20
It does indeed imply northern hemisphere (as I mentioned in the answer) but seeing as Tolkien seemed to have little interest, if any, in emulating the Southern Hemisphere within his writing, it seems a not-unreasonable assumption. – Broklynite Mar 26 '18 at 18:53
Middle–earth takes place in what would become northwestern Europe — more particularly, the Gaelic Isles which would later be occupied by the Brits, Scots, Welsh, Manx, and Irish, and then later in various places by the Romans (briefly), the Normans, the Anglo–Saxons, the English … – can-ned_food Mar 26 '18 at 19:22
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As for this answer, it is highly conjectural, I'm afraid. It reminds me of the scene in Fight Club — the one which culminates with “I understand: In death, a member of Project Mayhem has a name. His name is Robert Paulsen.” If I had my copy of the book handy, I could quote it better: point being that someone takes something, construes it with a seemingly reasonable but certainly unintended meaning, and then popularizes it. – can-ned_food Mar 26 '18 at 19:28
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I like this idea, and will steal it for one of my fictional worlds, but I don't think it answers the question … – can-ned_food Mar 26 '18 at 19:29
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There is no such thing as "increased sunlight [...] coming from that direction". South facing gardens/structures get more light in the northern hemisphere because the Earth's tilted axis means they will be hit by the sun for more hours each day. That doesn't mean there's increased sunlight on the south side, only that the south side will get longer periods of it. Phototropism would make it easier to move towards the light, yes, but that wouldn't be south, it would be following the Sun's east to west trajectory. – terdon Mar 28 '18 at 10:10
This answer has no connection, at all, to the question. It is a completely straightforward, well-known, joke that south is "down". Ten year old article on it ... https://www.wired.com/2010/06/north-feels-uphill/ – Fattie Mar 28 '18 at 14:13
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(Not that it matters at all, but trees and walking trees, newsflash!, get sunlight from all around. Again, this answer is (no offense) just utterly off-base. The common joke "south is down!" has no connection at all to gardening etc. Note that .... *in the Southern hemisphere* (Australia, etc) you make the same jokes about South being down, downhill, underneath, lower, etc.) – Fattie Mar 28 '18 at 14:16
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Note that in Japan (say), traditional maps have East up. There, they make jokes about west being "down". – Fattie Mar 28 '18 at 14:22

score 29 · Answer 3 · answered Mar 26 '18 at 04:52

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John Rhys-Davies, the actor who lent his voice to Treebeard, has gone on record stating that the line was actually an ad-lib. He just thought it would be the strange, almost non-sensical sort of thing that Treebeard might say.

answered Mar 26 '18 at 04:52

noizetoys

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Welcome to the Sci Fi Stack. Do you have a source you could add to this answer? That would strengthen the reliability of your answer. – Odin1806 Mar 26 '18 at 05:00
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According to this transcript Peter Jackson says it in the commentary for disc 2 of The Two Towers ("Peter: The line at the end of this scene was an ad-lib of John’s, when he says, “I always like going down south, it feels like going downhill,” which was just something he threw into the end of the recording session that we did; but he often comes up with those really nice little lines that… We can always try to find places for them in the film.") – tardigrade Mar 26 '18 at 10:10
Yes, but this answer purports to quote John Rhys–Davies. I've been searching the interwebs, but I cannot locate any such quote as yet. Noizetoys, is there a chance that you misremembered where you heard this? – can-ned_food Mar 26 '18 at 22:11
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It's very possible. I can't claim to remember what I had for breakfast. Which may have been a Ent, or an ant, or nothing at all... I have no reason to refute Edlothiad's answer, seems pretty much right on... – noizetoys Mar 26 '18 at 23:12

score 3 · Answer 4 · edited Jun 16 '20 at 09:31

Is it really?

Short answer:
No, it is probably not — not even in the Peter Jackson version of Arda.

Why was such a thing said at all?

Peter: The line at the end of this scene was an ad-lib of John’s, when he says, “I always like going down south, it feels like going downhill,” which was just something he threw into the end of the recording session that we did; but he often comes up with those really nice little lines that… We can always try to find places for them in the film.
_{The Two Towers Extended Edition Commentary Disc 2 - Transcript}

To put it another way:
An ad-lib was made by John Rhys–Davies at some time while he was recording lines written in the script. Then, during editing of the movie — when raw video and audio are trimmed, sequenced, combined, and post–processed, — the editors and producers were looking for somewhere to insert that particular line. Alas, however, we don't know how much time they spent deciding that, nor their exact considerations made during that decision.

So, we need to make an educated guess as to what happened.

What could've been John Rhys–Davies' inspiration or motivation for inventing the line?

Well, we lack much of the situational information which could be gained if we were either present at the aforementioned session or had access to the unedited audio recorded thereat.
I can best figure that it was a technique actors will use to help themselves embody a character. I never learned a proper name for it — probably a Method thing, for those who are curious, — but it consists of saying lines which were never written but which emerge from your understanding of a character. We could call it ‘emulation’. If it is indeed Method, then it involves an actor inventing character from means other than script analysis or the like. Voice actors do it occasionally during warm–ups. It has other uses too, but that's enough about that.

Of course, John could've said the whole thing in jest or in a moment of silliness.

Either way, it seems that he was attempting to emulate lines like these:

But if I had seen you, before I heard your voices — I liked them: nice little voices; they reminded me of something I cannot remember — if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little Orcs, and found out my mistake afterwards.

I can see and hear (and smell and feel) a great deal from this, from this, from this a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burúmë. Excuse me: that is a part of my name for it; I do not know what the word is in the outside languages: you know, the thing we are on, where I stand and look out on find mornings, and think about the Sun, and the grass beyond the wood, and the horses, and the clouds, and the unfolding of the world. What is going on? What is Gandalf up to?

Both are quotes from Treebeard in The Lord of the Rings, book 3, chapter 4.

What does it actually say?

Let's analyze the line. It begins by saying

I always like going south

which tells me that this is something Treebeard has, and did when speaking, felt or believed. In other places than when he mentioned it the scene.
Again, although we lack context for the line originally, Peter Jackson on the commentary told us that it was not purposed for the scene in which it was placed: it was simply something that John Rhys–Davies said and which Peter, Philippa, or Fran wanted to insert into a scene as if it were ‘additional dialogue recording’.

It continues with

Somehow,

Which is to say that Treebeard has not discovered how exactly it does, but simply that it does.

Finally:

it feels going downhill

What would an Ent feel while going downhill? Unfortunately, I know of nothing which would give us much information there.

Because I know of nothing which would imply that John Rhys–Davies was an eminent scholar of Tolkienology, I cannot suppose otherwise than to say that the line was mostly gibberish.
Meaning no discredit to John, of course. If anything, the blame lies on the editor who inserted that line into the finished movie. (Of course, that's my personal take on all this.)

So, to conclude this answer:

Is there a difference in elevation or something that can justify Treebeard's feelings, or is this just some random feeling he feels?

Probably the latter. The rendition of Treebeard in the Peter Jackson version of the story seems to imply that he is rather — shall we say, senile.
I mean, maybe it was included so as to help explain why Treebeard would believe Merry's rather ludicrous request that he carry them south at all.

This answer was going swimmingly until you ended with a statement of utter and complete personal opinion, phrased as if it were incontrovertible fact. To steal (with sliiiight adjustments) a quote from a wise wizard in a different book, "Of course it's [silly], Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it [doesn't belong in the movie]?" — Martha, Mar 27 '18 at 01:58
@Martha Huh — you know, I didn't see that until now. I thought it was necessary to tie things up. Well, I could explain why I think the way that I do, but that would simply bloat up the answer and would stray from the topic of the question. Edited; thanks for your comment! — can-ned_food, Mar 27 '18 at 02:15

score 0 · Answer 5 · answered Apr 13 '18 at 08:39

Yes

Let's look at the map of Middle-earth, paying particular attention to the Misty Mountains:

Being them a mountain range, walking away from them means, basically by definition, also going downhill.

It is clear that the Misty Mountains run from North-East to South-West. So if you are on their right side (where Fangorn is placed), going North and West means going uphill, and going South and East means going downhill¹.
Of course, going directly South-East means losing altitude more quickly, but going directly South equally brings you on a lower terrain position. We must also consider that very probably Treebeard did't mean South as a precise direction as determined by a compass, but in a broader sense to indicate a generic Southwards direction.

This terrain conformation is depicted also in the maps from Barbara Strachey's Journeys of Frodo, where to contour lines clearly show the morphology of the terrain:

_source

_{1. Granted, Fangorn is placed on a part of the Misty Mountains that has an almost North-South direction, but we can consider the general course of the whole range to be valid even here.}

Treebeard: "I always like going South, somehow it feels like going downhill." - Is it really?

5 Answers5

This was ad-libed by John Rhys-Davies, the voice actor for Treebeard

The land does indeed slope downwards

In the books, there's no such line, but there may be some evidence for the above.

Yes