In the Tv show Sansa is married to the Bolton bastard son (Ramsay) who gets legitimised by a decree of the King. Ramsay then kills his father and "becomes" lord of Dreadfort. That same "bastard" (Ramsay) then gets killed. He has no heirs so is Sansa now the Lady of Dreadfort?
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2Simply unknown. Usually, it is left upto the Overlord to decide succession in case of no clear heir (Or a Grand council, if its Royal succession). Sansa is not Master of Dreadfort, that decision shall reside with Jon. However, that's books only perspective. In the Show, if Olenna Tyrell could become lady of High Garden de-facto or Cersei could claim the throne using marriage ties, I don't see why Sansa can't use the same marital right – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 07:53
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Show-succession questions usually tend to have such absurd, senseless and downright silly answers, Sorry :( – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 07:53
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5I am lord of the Dreadfort! – Paul D. Waite Apr 03 '17 at 08:40
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10@PaulD.Waite Well I didn't vote for you. – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 08:50
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1The new Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North needs to be sorted out first. – TheMathemagician Apr 03 '17 at 08:57
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@TheMathemagician That was sorted out when they all sang the chorus of "Keng in teh Nolf, teh Keng in teh Nolf" for Jon. The office of "Warden of the North" exists solely due to allegiance to the Iron Throne. When that no longer exists, the office ceases to exist as well. And as for Winterfell's Lordship, it becomes Royal fief like Red Keep – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 08:59
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1@Aegon Robb was proclaimed 'King of the North' too but that didn't work out so well. – TheMathemagician Apr 03 '17 at 09:17
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1@TheMathemagician Doesn't matter how things go in the end. If King in the North exists, Warden of the North which is essentially the Overlord appointed by Iron throne (Yes in show they make it out to be hereditary title, but it is not so in the books), doesn't exist. – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 09:19
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This is simply unknown as of now.
Lord Ramsay Bolton left no living children or siblings. His Father Roose Bolton is not known to have any immediate kins either. Therefore it is unclear whether a Bolton claimant exists. Even if a Bolton claimant exists, why should they be granted Dreadfort? House Bolton is guilty of treason against the North and House Stark. Starks have every right to revoke their titles as their liege lords. But then again, only the senior line of House Bolton is guilty of treason and no longer exists in any case. It is possible for the Starks to be merciful and diminish their role from powerful vassals to small Lords or Northern equivalent of Landed Knights just like Robert did with House Connington where he demoted them to Landed knights but granted the family seat to younger line of the House. But it must be noted here that while the Senior line of House Connington fought for Targaryens, the younger line redeemed themselves by fighting for the Rebels in Robert's Rebellion. That is not the case with the younger Bolton lines, if any exist.
If we take example of the books, that Shall be decided by the Overlord of Dreadfort, that who becomes the new Lord or Lady based on different claims. That Person is Jon. Precedent here would be the Succession Crisis of House Hornwood (Never happened in the show), it was to be decided by Robb Stark.
But since this is about Show heresy, anything is possible.
If we look at Show-precedent:
1. Olenna Tyrell becomes de-facto Lady of High Garden due to her marriage to Lord Luthor Tyrell and death of all her Children and Grand Children, therefore wiping out senior line of House Tyrell. Olenna Tyrell (nee Redwyne) then became de-facto Lady of the Reach.
2. Cersei Lannister claimed the throne once her Baratheon Children had died even though her only relation to Royals was based on her marriage to Robert.
So if they can use marital ties to claim a title, So can Sansa.
Aegon
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1i do kind of agree with your assessment there. there is even a quote from both the books and the tv show. something in the lines of "power is where others perceive it to be" or some such. cant remember the exact quote.( both Littlefinger and the High Sparrow use a similar thing if I remember correct ) – Cherubel Apr 03 '17 at 08:31
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8@Cherubel Tyrion and Varys were discussing it. ACOK Tyrion II.
Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."– Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 08:40 -
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2Just a minor nitpick, Cersei Lannister was actually the next in line to the throne after Tommen without using martial ties. You have to go back like 7 generations or so but the line that eventually produced Tywin and his children actually come from a Baretheon/Lannister marriage that is closest living line to the one that produced Robert and his children. See http://web.archive.org/web/20150603163250/http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/9/94/BaratheonTree.jpg and https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/3omljf/s5_what_happens_if_tommen_dies/cvz5qwp/ – DenisS Apr 03 '17 at 19:04
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Is there anything to imply that your point 2 is based on valid laws/customs, as opposed to being based on threats of violence? – Scott Apr 04 '17 at 02:11
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@Scott see the answer linked above. It goes into detail why there's nothing in laws or norms to justify point 2. It's just because she could. That doesn't mean other lords will recognize it, at least the ones with power to defy her won't – Aegon Apr 04 '17 at 05:19
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Yes Sansa will become the Lady of Dreadfort because she is a widow of Ramsay Bolton and neither Ramsay Bolton nor Roose Bolton had any heirs. Since this event has not happen in the books, I cant find quotes to substantiate the arguments.
There are at least couple of instances of a widow taking over from their dead husbands. One such instance if of Lady Donella Hornwood.
Lady Donella Hornwood:
Lady Donella Hornwood brought no tail of knights and retainers; only herself, and six tired men-at-arms with a moosehead badge on their dusty orange livery. “We are very sorry for all you have suffered, my lady,” Bran said when she came before him to speak her words of greetings. Lord Hornwood had been killed in the battle on the Green Fork, their only son cut down in the Whispering Wood. “Winterfell will remember.”
A Clash of Kings, Bran
But who will take over Dreadfort, after Sansa will be complicated. In the case of Lady Donella Hornwood there were complications:
“Maester Luwin answered. “With no direct heir, there are sure to be many claimants contending for the Hornwood lands. The Tallharts, Flints, and Karstarks all have ties to House Hornwood through the female line, and the Glovers are fostering Lord Harys’s bastard at Deepwood Motte. The Dreadfort has no claim that I know, but the lands adjoin, and Roose Bolton is not one to overlook such a chance.”
A Clash of Kings, Bran
Roose Bolton forcefully marries Lady Hornwood and claims her land.
“The old knight was off east, trying to set to rights the trouble there. Roose Bolton’s bastard had started it by seizing Lady Hornwood as she returned from the harvest feast, marrying her that very night even though he was young enough to be her son. Then Lord Manderly had taken her castle. To protect the Hornwood holdings from the Boltons, he had written, but Ser Rodrik had been almost as angry with him as with the bastard.”
A Clash of Kings, Bran
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As for Case of Lady Donella, I believe that was a temporary arrangement. She had lost a husband and her only child in service of Robb Stark. It would be very ill-done to take away their inheritance from her. While she was allowed to be Lady of the Hornwood lands, that did not mean that Northmen stopped looking for her heir which was going to be a bastard Hornwood or a half-Hornwood. The Lands were not going to pass to Lady Hornwood's own house, which is House Manderly. – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 08:45
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There's also Baelish becoming Lord Protector of the Vale on account of being the widower of the widow of the last Lord of the Vale (two marriages away from any hereditary claim), which is a little similar. – user56reinstatemonica8 Apr 03 '17 at 09:26
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@user568458 Lord Protector is simply a fancy name for a regent. Anyone can become a regent regardless to any claim to the title they might be chosen for regency of. Regency is a matter of much intrigue, even in our real world, regents kept getting planted and supplanted by patrons or rivals. – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 09:59
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Sure. But it's interesting that he got that position, unopposed despite his relative unpopularity, almost entirely on the back of being the widower of the widow of the previous Lord. So titles by marriage do seem to carry some weight (Lysa's. – user56reinstatemonica8 Apr 03 '17 at 10:06
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@user568458 Lysa's power didn't come from being widow of Lord Arryn either. Her power came from being Regent of Lord Robert Arryn herself. Lil finger wasn't unopposed either. He was vehemently opposed in the books at least. Lords Declarants brought their armies on Doors of Eyrie itself. He beat them with his wits, winning himself a trial period. – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 10:23
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Taking this from a bit more of a practical perspective than the other answers; hereditary claims are usually taken by those that claim them (depending on circumstance to a degree). For example, Cersi's claim to the throne in a patriarchy is tenuous but in the face of unclear alternative leadership, she takes the lead and benefits from it.
On the other hand Sansa is off toddling about Winterfell playing Jon Snow's cheerleader. I imagine that no one at the Dreadfort would give a hoot about Sansa's technical claim and are probably (after holding a recovery morning after the massive piss-up from breaking open the Dreadfort's cellar now Ramsay is gone) squabbling over who in the currently assembled court will take the seat. Once that's done then it becomes another de facto taking of the seat, similar to Cersi's.
Toby
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Most of the Dreadforts standing men-at-arms died when Ramsay got captured. Those in place of leadership ( castellan, captain of the guard etc are mostly also killed or captured. Nobody will let them loose as they were loyal to Ramsay ). so that leaves the question open. either lords of minor Bolton lines or other North lords claiming the title by way of the female line. so it is not the same as in the case of the idiotic and megalomaniac Cersei. – Cherubel Apr 03 '17 at 11:09
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@Cherubel Yes a lot might be captured or dead. Though, in this world of travel-by-horse and the Dreadfort a relative back-water, thit would simply go to one with the wherewithal and geographical closeness to hear of the vacant seat and arrive in time, with enough resources, to enforce a claim however tenuous. The realities of the situation would become similar in that regard to Cersi's (not the idiocy etc), that the strongest claim would literally be the one present with the physically strongest claim with none willing to oppose them (to do so would jepardise their current position) – Toby Apr 03 '17 at 11:25
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it would have to be a really, really wealthy lord then. As taking claim of the Dreadfort would also meaning being able to protect it from Jon Snow or whomever ends up being the King of the North after it is revealed that Jon is a Targaryen in the next seasons. – Cherubel Apr 03 '17 at 11:45
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@Cherubel True dat, but the characters don't know that - most don't even know that Jon's alive (or in a lot of cases, that he ever existed - it's not like they hear about the minor lordly goings-on of other provinces in a newsletter) – Toby Apr 03 '17 at 11:58
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hmm... everybody in the North knows who Jon is! Him being Eddard Starks bastard and Eddard being Warden of the north for 20+ years at least. Dreadfort is a vasal of Winterfell. also they do have newsletter (Raven mail) After Jon was proclaimed King in the North I would assume that birds would have been sent to all the vasals of Winterfell and also to seats of other high houses in Westeros. – Cherubel Apr 03 '17 at 12:02
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hereditary claims are usually taken by those that claim themWhat do you mean by that? As for Patriarchy, it's not as bad if there is a valid claim e.g. Rhaenyra Targaryen whose claim split the realm into half even though she eventually lost the war, thereby creating the de-facto rule for Targaryen succession that heir must be a male. If Cersei had an actual claim, she could at least rally some principled people to her side. Her claim is tenuous because it is based on fait-accompli, nothing more than that. – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 12:05 -
With no administration in place who's going to read a few crummy birds? How long do the ravens hang about if their messages aren't removed immediately? – Toby Apr 03 '17 at 12:07
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As for "No one in dreadfort cares", no one in Dreadfort gets a say. They are peasants, they serve one lord or the other, doesn't matter at all to them. E.g. the Staff of Harrenhal, originally employed by Lady Shella Whent but later serving Lord Tywin, Lord Bolton, Lord Vargo Hoat, Ser Gregor Cleagane respectively. They don't get to have any designs on who takes over the Dreadfort. Only nobles get to do that. – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 12:07
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Sorry but this is illogical and unrelated to the in-universe norms and rules – Aegon Apr 03 '17 at 12:09
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1@Aegon, I mean for the most part, a hereditary claim is not enough to go on in cases where no one is about to do the claiming or bequeathing. If you turn up with a few soldiers and proclaim "Right, your all my peasants now because my grannys cousin got handsy with someone else's" no ones going to argue with you, at least in the immediate future. – Toby Apr 03 '17 at 12:10
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And as Cherubel said, there are no nobles left at the Dreadfort presently. Then the question to consider is how did nobles come to be nobles in the first place and when the peasants start arguing over who's pig is who's, then who's to sort it out? – Toby Apr 03 '17 at 12:11
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@Aegon, yes it is diverging from what we expect (due to how fiction normally runs) from in-universe norms - I disagree that is illogical though - as I mentioned in the answer it is practical – Toby Apr 03 '17 at 12:13