Would this character still be a bastard?

Question

In the last episode of season 6 we see what is clearly..

The truth about Jon's parentage, being the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.

Without getting into the "why" and "if" about this, (It is already covered in many other questions on this site)

Would Jon Snow still be a bastard if people knew who his parents are?

Just to be clear, i am not asking if he has a claim to the Iron Throne or not.

Vahx Well this question is about venturing into the unknown realm which hasn't happened in the show yet. If something which hasn't happened in the canon comes up, answers would be opinion based. Well At least that's what I think. If you have any argument for your case, I would be happy to withdraw the VTC. — Aegon, Jun 29 '16 at 08:11
This is not opinion based. If the answer is "We don't know yet, because [facts]", that's a valid answer, not an opinion. — user56reinstatemonica8, Jun 29 '16 at 09:17
@Aegon still its not an opinion based question, i just want to know if he would still be a bastard if he was the son of a prince of a family that is known for multiple spouses and incest. — Vahx, Jun 29 '16 at 15:37
@Vahx Targaryens aren't really known for polygamy. Only two of them showed polygamy, Aegon I and Maegor I. Aegon got away with it without any objects cus conquest but Maegor was exiled by his brother Aenys for that. — Aegon, Jul 01 '16 at 14:48
@Aegon Ah i see, i'm only familiar with the tv show and stuff i read online. I recall Cercei saying that "the Targaryen's practiced incest for years and no one blinked an eye", in the context of her relationship with her own brother. (i swear i will read the books one day) — Vahx, Jul 01 '16 at 15:19
You will enjoy the books immensely. Cersei is correct about the incest part, But targs aren't known for polygamy and she did not say that either. — Aegon, Jul 01 '16 at 16:56
I think you may have misunderstood the meaning of the word "bastard". It refers to a child born out of wedlock, not a child whose parents are not both known. As for the question being opinion based, I agree that it is not. — Blackwood, Jul 01 '16 at 17:04
@Blackwood oh if i were in GoT i would be Gendry, i'm 100% aware of what the word bastard means in our society. But like i said, i am only familiar with the tv show, so in the GoT universe, different rules might apply. — Vahx, Jul 01 '16 at 17:28
Possible duplicate of If J = L + R, why would his claim to the throne come before this Targaryen? — Möoz, Jul 03 '16 at 22:51
@Vahx The linked question addresses the legitimacy of Jon. Which points out that R&L were possibly married, if so, then yes Jon is legitimate. — Möoz, Jul 04 '16 at 22:03
@Mooz i understand that, but they are both just theories, one of those theories also relies on aspects of the books, which in this case cannot be considered anymore as the show is ahead of the books — Vahx, Jul 05 '16 at 15:14
Well, book answers will be the only correct ones as only the books are canon -GRRM — Möoz, Aug 14 '17 at 02:38
Also related: Question regarding “elopement” of Rhaegar & Lyanna — Möoz, Aug 14 '17 at 02:41

Aegon · Accepted Answer · 2017-08-22T12:23:27.227

27

People knowing who Jon's parents are does not mean anything for his bastard status. One is born a bastard if he is born out of wedlock, regardless to who the parents were.

Him being son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not prove that they had married as well because Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martell and traditionally Westeros is a strictly monogamous region by faith and culture. Being a bastard of a Prince does not mean that someone becomes legitimate child. There are plenty of examples of Bastards sired by Targaryen Princes and Monarchs e.g. Daemon Blackfyre, Aegor Bittersteel, Brynden Bloodraven etc.

It is however entirely possible that Rhaegar may have married Lyanna following the precedent of Aegon the Conqeuror who had two wives. King Maegor also had multiple wives. Quoting GRRM:

[Questions concerning Targaryen polygamy.]

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

Simple answer is, from Season Finale, we do not know if they had married or not. Thus we cannot say if Jon would remain a bastard or not.

UPDATE: In Season 7, it is revealed that Rhaegar had his marriage to Elia annulled and married someone else. That someone else can only be Lyanna, making Jon a legitimate Child. So it is all but confirmed in the show that Jon is now a trueborn Targaryen.

From S07E05:

Gilly: What does "annulment" mean?

Sam: It's when a man sets aside his lawful wife.

Gilly: Maynard says here that he issued an annulment for a Prince "Ragger" and remarried him to someone else at the same time in a secret ceremony in Dorne. Is that a common thing in the south or--?

edited Aug 22 '17 at 12:23

answered Jun 29 '16 at 07:54

Aegon

48,396
18
278
309

It's extremely unlikely they married in secret. Why would they? Rhaegar was already married and Lyanna betrothed to Robert. Without any evidence the default assumption must be that they were not married. – TheMathemagician Jun 29 '16 at 10:11
8

@TheMathemagician There is no assumption that they were married. It is explicitly mentioned as a possibility, in which case Jon won't be a bastard. Targaryens have practiced polygamy in the past, don't see why it would be out of the question. There is no proof for lack of a marriage either. It is just unknown. – Aegon Jun 29 '16 at 10:19
Aegon the Conqueror was centuries ago, and you don't question the marriage validity of someone with dragons. Why is it so hard to just admit that John is indeed a bastard? – TheMathemagician Jun 29 '16 at 10:34
3

@TheMathemagician I do not see where do I deny that Jon is a bastard? I don't know what's making you think that. And people do Question marriages of people with Dragons, e.g. King Aenys faced opposition from High Septon when he tried to marry his son to his daughter. Prince Maegor's marriages were opposed by High Septon and he was exiled from the realm for polygamy. They both had dragons. What are you even trying to prove here? Jon is possibly a bastard, It is also possible he may not be a bastard. What's so wrong with this? – Aegon Jun 29 '16 at 10:38
2

@TheMathemagician If you have any solid proof that Jon is indeed a bastard, I would be happy to withdraw the statement that points to possibility that he may not be a bastard. If you don't, why is it so hard for you to admit that he may not be a bastard? – Aegon Jun 29 '16 at 10:40
The proof is that his father was married to someone else and his mother was unmarried. Case closed. It's for you to provide evidence for a non-existent marriage - which wouldn't be recognized under Westerosi law anyway. – TheMathemagician Jun 29 '16 at 10:42
Let us continue this discussion in chat. – Aegon Jun 29 '16 at 10:45
I am citing precedence, you are just saying "Case Closed". That should settle it. Your proof is not a proof at all. It lies solely on Rhaegar's first marriage when there is plenty of precedence for Polygamy in Targs. I would like to see one bit of evidence in favor of your stance – Aegon Jun 29 '16 at 10:51
Technically do we even know that Rhaegar was the father? I don't remember that being stated in Bran's vision. It was only shown that Lyanna was Jon's mother, leaving her whispering largely inaudible and I couldn't lip-read it either. Also, technically, the match cut to grown-up Jon's face only really suggested that the baby was him ;) – Lightness Races in Orbit Jun 29 '16 at 12:21
1

@LightnessRacesinOrbit That would be the logical inference from Robert would kill him, you know he will thing she said to Ned. There can be no plausible reason for Robert to kill Lyanna's son unless he was a Targaryen, I suppose. Why kill the infant if he is not blood of your rival and a possible threat to your throne? – Aegon Jun 29 '16 at 12:23
@Aegon: That's true. But being mindful that the show continuity is not the book continuity, strictly speaking Rhaegar doesn't even exist in the TV canon yet. Jon's father could be anyone (though I agree that a Targ is most likely given that line and the circumstances). I wouldn't even be all that surprised, since revealing R+L=J years after everybody was already convinced about it was frankly very anti-climatic — it would be just like the showrunners to turn that around somehow at a later date. – Lightness Races in Orbit Jun 29 '16 at 12:35
@LightnessRacesinOrbit They have mentioned Rhaegar in the show as well. Of course they haven't shown him yet but he is mentioned. At that time there were only two Targaryen men capable of fathering a child, Aerys and Rhaegar. Viserys was a child so he can't be a father. And Robert would kill the child only if he was a Targ. But yeah if D&D can crown a bastard KiTN, They can do anything. – Aegon Jun 29 '16 at 12:41
@Aegon: Oh, they did? Okay, missed that. – Lightness Races in Orbit Jun 29 '16 at 13:30
1

@Aegon: http://beta.theladbible.com/entertainment/film-and-tv-hbo-has-told-us-who-jon-snows-daddy-is-20160629 If this counts as canon then problem solved :D – Lightness Races in Orbit Jun 29 '16 at 23:39
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Lol Yeah I came here all excited to answer This question with Ladbible Link but someone beat me to it by posting the internal link – Aegon Jun 30 '16 at 04:56
So, here's the big question I have now. It's mixing canon, so not worth an actual question, but if Jon is legitimate, what about Aegon VI? Would he then be a bastard? I don't know the timeline of births, etc. – eshier Aug 22 '17 at 13:32
@eshier No, Aegon will also be legit. And he's Jon's elder brother, not younger so he comes before Jon in line of succession. Jon is born in 283 AC. Aegon was born in either 281 or 282. It was after Aegon's birth that Maesters ruled out Elia would bear any more kids and Rhaegar decided that Dragon must have three heads – Aegon Aug 22 '17 at 13:35

score 6 · Answer 2 · edited Aug 14 '17 at 20:18

6

As of S7E5 it appears that

Rhaegar had an annulment.

As was read by Gilly to Sam. However, the full passage was cut off.

[Gilly] What does ann-ull-ment mean?
[Sam] It's when a men sets aside his lawful wife.
[Gilly] Maynard says here that he issued an annulment for a Prince "Ragger" and remarried him to someone else at the same time in a secret ceremony in Dorne. Is that a common thing....
[Sam] Begins ranting about other things

So while we do not 100% know for sure if

It was Lyanna Stark that was the "someone else at the same time"... but who else would fit the bill of "a secret ceremony in Dorne"...

This would make Jon

a legitimate Targaryen based on most customs in Westeros.

edited Aug 14 '17 at 20:18

Edlothiad

77,282
32
393
381

answered Aug 14 '17 at 02:29

Skooba

60,372
26
294
368

Well, not necessarily. Just because he his to Elia, doesn't make Jon , Rhaegar would have to have married first. (I'm convinced they would 'reveal' this soon, but as of now, it's not true). – Möoz Aug 14 '17 at 02:40
While this does appear to be true, it ignores the fact that OP is ignoring whether or not he has a claim, and is focused on whether or not his definition of a bastard is based on people knowing about his parentage. – phantom42 Aug 14 '17 at 02:51
2

This answer is incomplete: the annals Gilly was reading from also noted that the annulment immediately preceded a secret marriage ceremony to a new bride of Rhaegar's in Dorne. The Tower of Joy, where Ned found Lyanna, was in Dorne. The presence of the Kingsguard, whose job it is to protect the royal family, at the Tower was in itself proof that Jon was considered by Rhaegar to be legitimate, not a bastard. The annals Gilly found are simply proof that's accessible without relying on Bran's visions. – Kevin Troy Aug 14 '17 at 04:07
2

@phantom42 Correct, which is why I did not mention anything about his claim. A bastard is a bastard if the parents were not married. We now have evidence they were. – Skooba Aug 14 '17 at 12:56
@skooba my point is that, just because Rhaegar & Elia's marriage was annulled, doesn't mean that Jon is legitimate. Rhaegar & Lyanna being married is what makes him legitimate.... – Kevin Troy Aug 14 '17 at 15:03

Would this character still be a bastard?

2 Answers2

Linked