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When First Order launched the Starkiller, it was General Hux's order, Ren was in his warship. I wonder which of those two has higher rank in the First Order?

DVK-on-Ahch-To
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Dylan Czenski
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1 Answers1

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According to canon, neither.

Together with Captain Phasma (despite her simple "captain" designation), Visual Dictionary says they are about the same in pecking order. V.D. calls them "triumvirate", a term borrowed from co-leaders in Ancient Rome.

This seems fully stolen mirroring Episode IV, where Vader and Tarkin are similarly situated (Top Leader's right-hand "Dark Jedi" acolyte/enforcer on a special mission vs. top commander - although Tarkin was a Moff and not a General, because Empire was structured differently from First Order which seems to not have any civilian structure mentioned in canon at all).

Please note that Disney clearly liked that "equal" idea between Vader and Tarkin, because they explicitly made James Luceno strongly reinforce it in the expanded dynamics between them in the new Disney canon novel "Tarkin", with Palpatine himself explicitly encouraging it.

This parallel explicitly noted in The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary:

Kylo Ren exists outside the formal command structure of the First Order, and has a direct link to the shadowy Supreme Leader who is ultimately in charge of these forces of darkness. It is with palpable tension that the upper command of the First Order contends with Kylo, as his agenda always trumps military objectives. In this way, Kylo's placement within the hierarchy resembles that of Darth Vader in the old Galactic Empire. This is entirely by design. (Page 25)

This dynamics is confirmed in the Foster TFA novelization, where we see the usual "trying to one-up each other in front of Supreme Leader" dynamic between the two, when they talk to the Wizard of Frank Oz Snoke's giant hologram (and even earlier when they bicker about the map's existence aboard the Star Destroyer).

CLARIFICATION: While Phasma is a part of triumvirate, she is still line-of-command subordinate to either Hux, or sometimes Ren (on Jakku, in the novelization, we have “Your orders, sir?” she murmured line).

ThePopMachine
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DVK-on-Ahch-To
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    and yes, "this is so because it's the same in the film they rebooted" is pretty much a correct answer to ~10-40% of Star Wars: the Disney Reboot questions. – DVK-on-Ahch-To Dec 28 '15 at 20:45
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    So I guess 'Captain' is just Phasma's first name? Kind of like the Marauder Shields of Star Wars? Or maybe 'captain' is her people's word for 'hope'? – DaaaahWhoosh Dec 28 '15 at 22:31
  • @DaaaahWhoosh - nope, it's her rank, but it belies her true importance. – DVK-on-Ahch-To Dec 28 '15 at 22:41
  • The Tarkin novel is canon? I hadn't realised that. – TZHX Dec 30 '15 at 21:55
  • @TZHX - sadly yes. But Kenobi one, isn't. Disney sux – DVK-on-Ahch-To Dec 30 '15 at 22:19
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    In A New Hope, Vader is clearly subservient to Tarkin, who is not merely "Moff" but "Grand Moff," as well as Governer of the Imperial Outland Regions, and Death Star Commander, while Vader is unranked and only commands Star Destroyer Admirals, Marine Generals and Storm Troopers. Tarkin rebuffs Vader a few times in the film, and Vader obeys him. Its similar to Nazi Germany, with Tarkin as commander of regular forces and weapons, while Vader is tasked with special missions as SS or secret police. They are not equal. Vader is more a chief-of-staff while Tarkin is like the Secretary of State. – chillin Jan 10 '16 at 10:06
  • @chillin - when is he subservient EXCEPT for "Vader, release him!" - which happens often enough with similar ranks, like "dude, 'nuff of that" – DVK-on-Ahch-To Jan 10 '16 at 13:00
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    @DVK - At every interaction of which we are aware, Tarkin is dominant. Vader reports to Tarkin. Tarkin informs Vader (and everyone) of the Emperor's wishes. Tarkin is unsatisfied with Vader's interrogation, and effectively fires him, taking over the interrogation himself. Even Leia recognizes their chain of command, "Governor Tarkin! I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash." – chillin Jan 11 '16 at 17:43
  • @chillin - "leash" think is interesting, though I am not sure how much of that is actual and how much her trying to be biting. The rest of it doesn't IMHO show Vader as subservient - they are equals, AND they are in Tarkin's domain (Death Star is his baby), so he obviously does what he wishes. But he doesn't give orders to Vader - note that Vader's the one who decides to take his TIE/advanced to fight X-Wings on his own. – DVK-on-Ahch-To Jan 11 '16 at 17:50
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    @DVK Generals outrank Captains, but a Captain is still free to jump in a jeep and go where he pleases so long as he has no other duty. Vader is subservient to Tarkin only in that Tarkin has a superior rank and Vader follows his command. Vader obeys Tarkin regarding the interrogation. Vader's entire mission in ANH is to find the stolen plans to the Death Star. This is Tarkin's agenda, not Vader's. Vader cannot order the Death Star to Alderan, nor order it to fire. You have made no clear argument that Vader is Tarkin's equal; the evidence you've presented for their equality is unsupported. – chillin Jan 11 '16 at 20:41
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    @chillin - you're arguing a position I am not taking. I never said Vader is in charge of Death Star. Tarkin is. However, he's NOT in charge of Vader. Emperor is. Vader can do what he damn well pleases OTHER than when it would infringe on Tarkin's turf or contradict the Emperor's orders (and death star plans thing was Emperor's order, not Tarkin's as far as I recall from EU) – DVK-on-Ahch-To Jan 11 '16 at 20:45
  • @DVK your position is Vader & Tarkin are equal. The evidence proves otherwise: 1)Vader's mission 2)Admiral Motti speaks to Vader as an equal, with disrespect 3)Tarkin's rebuff on bickering 4)Tarkin taking over the interrogation 5)Leia's characterization. Each point alone is evidence of Vader being lower in rank. Further, Vader commands no vessel of consequence; in military when command is in question, the commander of the superior tactical ship is the top commander, that being Tarkin in this case. You have yet to present any clear evidence of their equality. Simply, you are mistaken. – chillin Jan 11 '16 at 21:10
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    @chillin - OK I see what your problematic root cause is. You think that Tarkin and Vader are both in the military. NEITHER of them is. Tarkin is a Sector (or Grand, at that time) Moff. Think a combination SecDef and some other high level position in administration. Vader is a personal right hand of the Emperor (thing Vice President-ish thing, for an extremely poor analogy). Or for less government analogy: Tarkin is a head of a major department in a company; and Vader is an outside consultant reporting directly to CEO. NEITHER has power over one another. And their ranks are incomparable. – DVK-on-Ahch-To Jan 11 '16 at 22:08
  • @DVK I see what your problematic cause is: you prefer to equivocate while continuously employing strawman fallacy and never present any evidence for your claims, while ignoring nearly all evidence to the contrary and simply gainsaying the evidence you do address. In the future, you will be more successful if you present some evidence for your claims, rather than strawman arguments and merely speaking from authority. Until that time, all the evidence I have presented stands without your dissent, ultimately signifying that Tarkin and Vader are not equal, as per the events in ANH. – chillin Jan 11 '16 at 23:03
  • @chil my reference is in the answer. Tarkin book which is Disney canon – DVK-on-Ahch-To Jan 11 '16 at 23:08
  • @DVK The evidence you presented is a single interpretation, neither with citation nor persuasive. A commanding officer and executive officer will often argue, in fact, that is one duty of an executive officer to question the commander's decisions. This interpretation is no less valid than your own. Even the events in Tarkin can be interpreted to show that in the Empire, Tarkin holds rank above Vader. Again, you have given no clear evidence of such a specious claim, nor have you sufficiently addressed the evidence presented that they are not equal. – chillin Jan 11 '16 at 23:29
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    @chillin - Neither of them are officers. The fact that they command military doesn't make them officers - one is a "Lord", one is a "Elevated Moff". Those are both political positions, and orthogonal to each other - the direct boss of both is the Emperor but they do different things. Note that they are both superior to admirals and generals who are actual top level military officers - because they excercise political control over them. Empire is NOT a military dictatorship, like Spain or Chile. It's more akin to USSR, with civilian political organization in charge of the military. – DVK-on-Ahch-To Jan 11 '16 at 23:47
  • @DVK You're making another strawman argument. I'm not declaring them officers, yet that's what you are arguing against. I used a counter-example of ordinary command structure to refute your unsupported claim. Again, you offer no evidence for your claims, but speak from authority. – chillin Jan 12 '16 at 00:09
  • I see what your respective problematic causes are: you think StackExchange is Reddit. – Adamant Mar 06 '16 at 08:27