39

Leading on from the question Did Harry Potter ever invent any spells? specifically Himarm's answer and the comment thread underneath it, I would like to ask:

Did Hermione invent the Four-Point Spell herself?

FYI the passage open to interpretation is:

He had soon mastered the Impediment Jinx, a spell to slow down and obstruct attackers, the Reductor curse, which would enable him to blast solid objects out of his way, and the Four-Point Spell, a useful discovery of Hermione's which would make his wand point due north, therefore enabling him to check whether he was going in the right direction within the maze.

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - p.529 - Bloomsbury - Chapter 31, The Third Task

Some people have interpreted this to mean that Hermione invented the spell herself, whereas others have interpreted it to mean that she dug it up in a book, or something like that.

I thought it worth opening a new question on the topic.

Community
  • 1
Au101
  • 29,499
  • 13
  • 114
  • 157
  • 15
    Discovery, not invention. Therefore no. The answer is right there in the quote you give. – Rand al'Thor Dec 03 '15 at 00:36
  • 3
    @randal'thor well I completely agree with you, but as you can see, other people interpret it differently, I guess like scientific discovery. I was going to mention in my answer that that usually means observing something, or bringing some natural thing to general attention, rather than creating something anew, but I guess one could argue that all of magic is naturally occurring and that those who "invent" spells really merely discover the incantation, etc. that allows you to use it – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 00:40
  • 5
    @randal'thor i think its also important to note, that if we assume all of these spell came from books, then Hermione discovered ALL of them since we all know Ron and Harry are worthless at this and leave all the book work to her. HOWEVER, only the 4 point spell is distinguished from the others, as SPECIFICALLY found by Hermione, which reads oddly, unless instead of finding it in a book, she came up with the spell herself! – Himarm Dec 03 '15 at 14:19
  • 3
    I don't see anything odd or distinguishable about the passage quoted above. As a native English speaker it's clear to me that Hermione learned of the spell's existence. If you want to infer more, you can infer that she discovered it most likely due to her tendency toward lots of research, compared to the more organic style of learning that Harry (or Ron) uses. – TylerH Dec 03 '15 at 15:20

2 Answers2

50

The use of the word "discovery" is used in another instance in the Harry Potter books:

ALBUS DUMBLEDORE

CURRENTLY HEADMASTER OF HOGWARTS

Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the Dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon’s blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Professor Dumbledore enjoys chamber music and ten-pin bowling.

Dumbledore is credited with discovering

Some old Quaffles have finger holes. With the discovery of Gripping Charms in 1875, however, straps and finger holes have become unnecessary, as the Chaser is able to keep a one-handed hold on the charmed leather without such aids.

One development in the wizarding community gave Remus hope: the discovery of the Wolfsbane Potion.

Both of these also use the same familiar world discovery and use its other definition

to obtain sight or knowledge of for the first time

This seems in line with Harry's usage here

"...the Four-Point Spell, a useful discovery of Hermione's which would make his wand point due north, therefore enabling him to check whether he was going in the right direction within the maze."

To top it off, this spell is never seen before or by anyone other then Harry and co, and it's one of a very few, possibly the only, spell whose incantation is in English

"Point Me"

thanks to @candiedmango for the quotes!

As an aside the use of the word Discovery is never used in the Harry Potter books as a direct relation to finding something out in a book, and with the large amount of time they spend searching texts in the library, looking for clues about this or that, it seems odd, that JKR would limit the use of the word discovery.

Himarm
  • 66,182
  • 33
  • 288
  • 358
  • 2
    Well, that's one of the points of contention. With the twelve uses of dragon's blood, Dumbledore doesn't give dragon's blood any uses, he merely finds out what they are, he works out a secret that was always there for the working out. He removes the figurative cover and learns something. Now, the question is whether spells are similarly worked out, or whether they are truly created. But, all the same, I would argue that there's a difference between "discovering" penicillin and creating meticillin. Similarly I don't think observing the uses of something is the same as coming up with a new spell – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 01:27
  • 5
    @Au101 imo, all magic is already out there, its just up the the wizard or witch to figure out how to use it. so in a sense no one created a spell, or invented a spell, they simply figured out how to do something that already could be done, like dumbledore with dragons blood. so in a sense yes hermione did not create new magic, but hermione imo did discover how to USE that magic. – Himarm Dec 03 '15 at 01:30
  • Your edit makes a very good point. I still don't agree, but I respect the quality of this answer enough to give it a +1 :) – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 01:46
  • @Au101 After I found those I found a lot more conflicting uses of the word "Invented" when referring to new spells and potions... – CandiedMango Dec 03 '15 at 01:49
  • @CandiedMango invented isnt conflicting!! it just lessons discovery's sole use. – Himarm Dec 03 '15 at 01:50
  • @CandiedMango I think I saw some of them in Mos Eisley. Personally, I maintain that it's kind of a moot point whether spells are "discovered" or "invented" or both, or neither and think that, given the context, and everything else I mention, it's not very likely that we're supposed to interpret this as Hermione's own spell. But like I say, I think Himarm deserves the rep for an objectively well-produced answer, even if I don't think it's correct, my purpose was, after all, to have the discussion outside of an obscure comment thread, with its character limits :P – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 01:54
  • Baaah! Pathetic magical quidditch chasers. Muggle quidditch quaffles don't have finger holes or gripping charms! – Jekowl Dec 03 '15 at 12:50
  • "the word Discovery is never used in the Harry Potter books as a direct relation to finding something out in a book"... except in this case. :-) – T.E.D. Dec 03 '15 at 16:45
  • @T.E.D. we don't know where she got it, even in this case, so it may have been a book, it may have been on a piece of parchment, it could have been written in the girls bathroom stall for all we know, or she made it up herself. – Himarm Dec 03 '15 at 16:47
  • 1
    @Himarm - I'd argue you only don't know where she got it if you'd been paying no attention whatsoever to her behavior prior to this. – T.E.D. Dec 03 '15 at 16:48
  • 2
    If Hermione "invented" a new form of magic, the only way that Harry would be able to perform it would be for her to teach it to his wand. If she uncovered the combination of the wand movement and incantation, I would consider that to be along the lines of "discovering" the uses for Dragon's Blood: Unlocking the potential that had heretofore been unknown. Either way, she came up with it on her own. The only way she didn't "create" the new magic is to have found it in a book. That passage does not indicate that is what happened. – krillgar Dec 03 '15 at 16:55
  • 2
    I think the fact that Hermione, unlike many wizards, is well versed in the world of muggles, and that the spell makes Harry's wand behave like a muggle compass, also lends credence to the idea that Hermione could easily be the originator of the spell. – bwarner Dec 03 '15 at 23:09
35

I don't think so.

After Harry learns what the third task will consist of (getting through a maze) and then runs into Barty Crouch Sr and all that jazz, the trio get in training.

For the next few days he spent all his free time either in the library with Hermione and Ron, looking up hexes, or else in empty classrooms, which they sneaked into to practise. Harry was concentrating on the Stunning spell, which he had never used before.

...

'Well, I think Harry's got it now, anyway,' said Hermione hastily. 'And we don't have to worry about Disarming, because he's been able to do that for ages ... I think we ought to start some of these hexes this evening.'

She looked down the list they had made in the library.

'I like the look of this one,' she said, 'this Impediment Jinx. Should slow down anything that's trying to attack you, Harry. Let's start with that one.'

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - pp.498-9 - Bloomsbury - Chapter 29, The Dream

So, much like with the second task, they've been trawling through library books, compiling a list of useful-looking spells and then practising them.

Harry then has his dream where he sees Wormtail getting tortured and goes to tell Dumbledore. He then takes a trip down memory lane through Dumbledore's Pensieve.

After this, they set to it again, and that's where we get the quote I mentioned above. Note that the Impediment Jinx (one of the spells on their list) is explicitly mentioned. What follows this quote is a bit about Harry's troubles with the Shield Charm and then:

'You're still doing really well, though,' Hermione said encouragingly, looking down her list, and crossing off those spells they had already learnt. 'Some of these are bound to come in handy.'

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - p.529 - Bloomsbury - Chapter 31, The Third Task

In this context, it really sounds to me like Hermione "discovered" the spell in a book, that is:

  1. Find unexpectedly or during a search:

'firemen discovered a body in the debris'

OED

I would argue she dug it up and added it to their list, rather than that she invented it.

In addition to this, I consider Hermione someone who takes a very by-the-book approach to her magical education, e.g. (one example of very, very many):

'Mandrake, or Madragora, is a powerful restorative,' said Hermione, sounding as usual as though she had swallowed the textbook.

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - p.72 - Bloomsbury - Chapter 6, Gilderoy Lockhart

I don't really think she's the sort of person to experiment with her magic, and at this desparate time, when the Third Task is imminent, I can't really see her messing about with her own creations.

Also, as I mentioned under the linked question, she seems - at the very least - cautious about non-approved spells:

'So you just decided to try out an unknown, handwritten incantation and see what would happen?'

'Why does it matter if it's handwritten?' said Harry, preferring not to answer the rest of the question.

'Because it's probably not Ministry of Magic-approved,' said Hermione. 'And also,' she added, as Harry and Ron rolled their eyes, 'because I'm starting to think this Prince character was a bit dodgy.'

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - p.226 - Bloomsbury - Chapter 12, Silver and Opals

There is a much larger dimension to this - her mistrust of the Half-Blood Prince and her mistrust of other people's incantations, scribbled down in a book, which could be anything. Of course this mistrust may not apply to her own spells, but, still, I can't personally see her inventing spells, to be honest.

Anyway, that point is arguable, but I would also say surely, surely, if 15-year-old Hermione had invented the spell herself, Jo Rowling would not have left it so unclear, nor remarked upon it so tangentially. From an out-of-universe perspective, I think JKR would have made a much bigger deal out of it, if she'd intended to say that it was Hermione's own creation. For me, the very ambiguity is reason enough to believe "discovery" here means something she found, in the books that they'd been searching through in the library, which was, of course, the well-established context of this remark.

Finally, I would point to the fact that it has a name - the Four-Point Spell - that is different to its incantation (Point Me). This is, surely, not proof positive, but where did the official-sounding name come from? For sure, Hermione could have invented it and named it, but to me, it really sounds like "the Four-Point Spell" is the name the spell appears under in a textbook, with its associated incantation given underneath.

Au101
  • 29,499
  • 13
  • 114
  • 157
  • 1
    The article on the spell in the Harry Potter wikia offers an argument that she invented it: "The Four-Point Spell's incantation, Point Me, is one of the few known incantations to be in modern English, rather than Latin or another ancient language. Given that the incantation is English, combined with the fact that none of the other champions used it and there is no recorded use of the spell other than Harry's, it is likely Hermione did invent this spell." – Hypnosifl Dec 03 '15 at 00:37
  • @Hypnosifl Well, I mean, we don't see much of what the other champions did or did not do, but they all tackled all of the tasks in their own way. It's notable that none of the trio worked out that you could use the bubble head charm for task 2, which was sufficiently well-known to become a fashion during book 5. It's also, as the wikia freely admits, far from the only incantation in English. Stupefy, for one :P – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 00:44
  • @Au101 stupere is latin for stupor , aka stun. jkr likes to use a bastardized form of latin anyway. latin-esc – Himarm Dec 03 '15 at 00:50
  • @Himarm Well that may very well be so, but that doesn't change the fact that stupefy is an English word. It's merely derived from Latin. Point is also derived from Latin punctum, making its way into English via French ... – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 00:53
  • @Au101 - Well, a lot of Rowling's spells are pseudo-Latin, but you can imagine that ancient Roman or Medieval wizards/witches liked to modify or combine Latin words so that the spell's word wouldn't be something they'd say in ordinary speech. The page here suggests that rather than just being an English word, it could have been coined by a wizard/witch as a combination of two Latin words: The Latin verb stupeo meaning “to be stunned, numbed, astonished” and fio meaning “make, do, cause to happen.” – Hypnosifl Dec 03 '15 at 01:51
  • 1
    ...of course, it's equally possible the stupefy spell was invented sometime after the origin of the word in the English language. But if we do assume that the word use reflects the language of the first one to come up with a spell, then the four-point spell being in English makes it more likely that Hermione created it, since there are relatively few English spells. – Hypnosifl Dec 03 '15 at 01:55
  • @Hypnosifl Well, OOU stupefy is literally from stupefacere, from stupere and facere (lit. to make [someone become] stunned). stupefacere is a Vulgar Latin word and it really did give us the genuine English word. But, if it were like all the other pseudo-Latin ones, you'd expect stupefacio, or something, wouldn't you? – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 02:04
  • 1
    But I kind of think it's a bit of a non-sequitur. None of Snape's (one generation older) spells are plain English and I don't really think the fact that it may be a more recent spell than, say, "expelliarmus" means much. I understand you don't think it's proof positive, anymore than I think some (perhaps any) of my points are proof positive. But, personally, I think it's taking (what I consider an unlikely) interpretation of the word "discovery" and running with it. Ah well, at 6 - 3, I'm clearly not in the majority at the present moment .... ;) – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 02:06
  • 2
    Not Vulgar Latin - Medieval Latin – Au101 Dec 03 '15 at 02:16
  • I was about to write that Hermione is not the kind of person to experiment or invent, but then remembered about her waterproof fire spells. Can't remember if somewhere is stated she invented those spells or just learned them – algiogia Dec 03 '15 at 09:45
  • 3
    I fully agree with this answer, +1. The fact that they were trawling through books at the time combined with the fact that Hermione, like you say, is not the most experimental person, are both excellent points in my book - I think "discovery" here is referred to discovery in a book. @algiogia I believed they're referred to as a "speciality" of hers, but not an invention. – Luna Dec 03 '15 at 10:09
  • Couldn't this collection of quotes be taken to argue for her inventing it? They first spent days sifting through books, building up a list of useful things. Then they practice these. And then we learn about Point me in a way that suggests that it certainly was not on the list. Moreover, it can be assumed that at least one third of the stuff on the list was found by Hermione anyway. So either it is pointless (no pun intended) to state that Hermione found this one in a book like many others; or it would've been made clearer she searched on during the train-the-things-on-the-list phase. – Hagen von Eitzen Dec 03 '15 at 20:12
  • @HagenvonEitzen I see what you mean, but (IMHO) the reading and the training phase descriptions are not supposed to be exhaustive lists of everything they found. When they're practising, the scenes have conversations or Harry is under stress. Point me is not shown as a difficult spell - him practising it would be a fairly boring scene. So, I don't think it's surprising that it didn't come up before then. I also don't think it's unusual to note that Hermione found it rather than Harry - it's just giving credit to her research skills, as Harry may not have noted it down as a useful spell. – Luna Dec 04 '15 at 14:51
  • 2
    If anything, the fact that point me is English rather than pseudo-Latin indicates that Hermione didn’t invent it. As this answer points out, Hermione is a traditionalist who goes by the book (and, I'm guessing, probably knows a good deal more Latin than any other student in the school). If she had invented a spell, she would surely have made sure that it fit the standard mould and made it pseudo-Latin. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Dec 30 '15 at 20:14
  • @Au101 'I don't really think she's the sort of person to experiment with her magic' You don't think her activities at the end of PS is experimenting? You don't think brewing Polyjuice in her second year is rather experimenting? You think her meddling with time in year three isn't experimenting? She certainly is one to experiment whether she experimented with the four point spell or not. – Pryftan Nov 30 '17 at 01:31
  • @Au101 'But, if it were like all the other pseudo-Latin ones, you'd expect stupefacio, or something, wouldn't you?' Expecting things from lexicographers is only asking to be surprised. And etymology doesn't necessarily work the way you're suggesting anyway. Also check out the point on Sectumsempra here: https://www.pottermore.com/features/the-etymology-of-harry-potter-spells for more on the subject of naming and Latin. – Pryftan Nov 30 '17 at 01:33
  • 1
    @Pryftan Well no, I don't think that's experimenting. She didn't come up with the Polyjuice Potion, toy with it, or alter it in any way, she didn't come up with the Time Turner or ever bend any of its rules except on Dumbledore's hints and instructions and I don't really know what you're referring to at the end of PS. She engaged in risky behaviours and attempted bold and brave magic that other people had created/discovered. But she always did it by the book, as we see in her attitude to the Prince's book. – Au101 Nov 30 '17 at 01:38
  • @Pryftan It's okay if I haven't convinced you, but none of those are examples of her attempting to create her own spells or in any way use magic that she didn't get out of a book. – Au101 Nov 30 '17 at 01:39
  • @Au101 Neither did I say where she got it; observe I didn't suggest that at all. But I did offer you some points on etymology and lexicography. And exactly my point: risky behaviours and bold and brave magic. One of the definitions of 'experiment': 'A course of action tentatively adopted without being sure of the outcome.' She didn't know the outcome clearly although she knew what was at stake (the stone). And meddling with time with or without instructions is experimenting. Yes she knew the dangers of time travel but any number of things could have gone wrong when rescuing Sirius! – Pryftan Nov 30 '17 at 02:27
  • @Au101 Just to clarify I was trying to say that in fact she is one to experiment contrary to what you suggest. And brewing Polyjuice potion and going for the Slytherin common room is pretty risky too, don't you think? Essentially I am not really concerned about whether she invented it or not so much as to say that your suggestion she doesn't experiment isn't exactly true and thus invalid reasoning. – Pryftan Nov 30 '17 at 02:30
  • 1
    @Pryftan Eh perhaps my wording is at fault perhaps not. It's the difference between being someone who wants to try out every new gadget they can find but who just uses the gadgets. They might experiment with all the different features, try them out, see what they can do. But that kind of experimenting is different to the kind where you try and take them apart or build your own, or add an extra arm. I'm talking about experimenting with magic in the sense of experimenting with creating magic, new magic, experimental magic, magic that others haven't tried, magic that isn't in the textbook – Au101 Nov 30 '17 at 03:20
  • @Au101 Fair enough. My point was simply that she is one to engage in risky behaviour! And when a lot is at stake she's more likely to do so (though whether she did here or not I do not know or care to speculate). We must remember also she was still a child and children have this inability to truly understand they're not invincible. I disagree she's always one to follow the textbook but I haven't a clue if she created this spell. It was more like this: that it's risky behaviour isn't valid reasoning behind why she wouldn't have experimented here because she is one to engage in risky behaviour. – Pryftan Dec 01 '17 at 02:19
  • @Pryftan Whereas my reasoning goes, given the attitude she has towards the Prince and his 'probably not Ministry of Magic-approved' spells, and the way that she learnt textbooks off by heart, she really doesn't seem the type mess about and create her own spells. For this reason I think it's unlikely she created this spell, and, if anything, the importance and the pressure of it all really makes me think she would have had little time or inclination to fiddle about with her own pet spells. All this I think more than offsets some slightly ambiguous wording – Au101 Dec 01 '17 at 03:01
  • @Au101 Perhaps. I'm not saying one way or another what she did. I was just trying to say that as far as risky behaviour that's not a valid reason here because she does engage in quite risky things. But you're right also on the time limit: they were rushed and she would have wanted to get as much as she can to him in the time frame they had. Mind you I'd like to believe she created it but that's the beauty of words and the imagination. I don't know if I have an opinion one way or another though. That being said she did enchant the coins and also jinx the DA sign up form. Her own magic! – Pryftan Dec 02 '17 at 17:24