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If memory serves me correctly, I believe Jonathan Rosenblum cites in his biography of Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky a story where Rav Yaakov complained that someone had placed a sefer on an arm of a bench rather than stand it up on the seat, to avoid the halachic prohibitions of Yoreh Deah 282 of sitting on the same surface as a Torah.

Accordingly, what are the halachically required minimum dimensions of shelves upon which printed Torah sefarim may be placed (i.e. minimum elevation from ground, width and depth)?

Does it matter if the sefarim are standing vs. lying down?

Al Berko
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Loewian
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    Not only is it better, but, your mentioning Rav Ya'akov gives me a possibility of asking his grandson, if he may know anything about it. (I occasionally see Rav Mordechai Kamenetezky.) – DanF Oct 22 '18 at 19:56
  • I know that the minhag is to allow when the sefer is standing – kouty Oct 22 '18 at 20:27
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    https://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/92583/9643 –  Oct 22 '18 at 23:52
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    I don't understand how do you link a bench to sit on to a shelf? A shelf is not something to sit on, therefore it's Pashtus that no restrictions apply. – Al Berko Oct 23 '18 at 09:26
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    I received from my Rabbi M"R Luria Z"L that the hardcover is a level on its own and not a part of a book, therefore it's permissible to sit on a bench if a Sefer in a hardcover placed on it. – Al Berko Oct 23 '18 at 09:28
  • The difference between a Sefer standing or lying is (according to my comment above) that while in a hardcover a standing book's pages might touch the bench and invalidate the permitssion, therefore the cover is made half an inchbigger, that even when standing, the book's pages won't touch the bench, thus allowing sitting on it. – Al Berko Oct 23 '18 at 09:30
  • If I remember Hazon Ish held that no restrictions apply to unused holy books, and it's permittable to put them on the floor or (maybe) stand on them (?). – Al Berko Oct 23 '18 at 09:31
  • @Loewian "Rav Yaakov complained that someone had placed a sefer on an arm of a bench rather than stand it up on the seat." Forgive me for missing it if this is your main point, but why wouldn't putting it on the arm be better? – SAH Oct 29 '18 at 18:51
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    @SAH I think the idea was that the surface it's resting on needs to be a minimum size. – Loewian Oct 30 '18 at 03:44
  • @Loewian Thanks. How big is that, out of curiosity? – SAH Oct 31 '18 at 18:04
  • @Loewian And do you know why AlBerko's rabbi's hardcover idea would work if it needs to be big? – SAH Oct 31 '18 at 18:04
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    @SAH My question is basically asking what the required minimum dimensions are. (I vaguely recall the bio saying something about 10 tefachim, but I haven't found anything else saying that.) I believe Alberko's leniency is controversial at best and arguably might be limited to a raised bench, as opposed to a surface close to the floor. Though I would certainly at least upvote a well-sourced answer along those lines. – Loewian Oct 31 '18 at 18:10
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    @AlBerko I believe it’s a machlokes whether printed books have the same status as parchment. – DonielF Mar 14 '19 at 14:01
  • Perhaps the armrest is within 3 tefachim of the seat, making it lavud. As such, we’d use the entirety of the surface underneath the Sefer, rather than just the armrest. (Btw I think it’s 4x4 tefachim, based on Hilchos Eruvin and Hilchos Kinyan Chatzer, but this could be different. 10 tefachim is usually reserved as a height restriction to define a new domain, rather than a width.) cc @SAH – DonielF Mar 14 '19 at 14:03
  • @DonielF There's no Machlokes, printed matter has a much lower level, probably Derabanan only. – Al Berko Mar 14 '19 at 18:46
  • @AlBerko Consider the two contradictory answers here as well as the discussion here. Seems to be a machlokes between the Taz and the Aruch HaShulchan. – DonielF Mar 14 '19 at 21:07
  • @DonielF Unfortunately my "אמונת חכמים" slowly expires/fades away as I can less and less stand unsupported claims. I require an understanding of "how things work", "what are the underlying mechanisms" etc. Those short single opinions make little impression on me. We have to get back to square 1 - what does the Kedusha of the writings come from? is it the content? is it the Ktav? is it the parchment? is it the scriber or the Kavonos etc? Until we agree on this it makes no sense to go further, I think. – Al Berko Mar 15 '19 at 10:53
  • @DonielF Another very important distinction we must make is where do we draw the line of Mutar and Asur in the grayish area of Rabbinical statements - tons of Rabbis publish their opinions on everything, when does it become the obligating Halacha? Do we all follow Taz? Seriously? I would agree, those are important considerations in deciding in every single case, but I doubt if generalizations can be made. – Al Berko Mar 15 '19 at 10:56
  • @AlBerko I never said that we follow one over the other. All I said is that it’s a dispute. I didn’t say your Rav was wrong, I just said it’s not so simple. According to the Taz, even printed Sefarim have Kedushah; whether we hold like that or not is a different question. As far as what creates the Kedushah: I’ve always understood the dispute to be if it comes from the content alone, or if the writing and parchment are also contributing factors. – DonielF Mar 15 '19 at 14:01
  • @Loewian The story in your OP stuck in my mind; l'chatchila, shouldn't the person have avoided putting the sefer down at all? – SAH Sep 18 '19 at 21:04

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