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The Gemara in Rosh HaShanah 17b states that HaShem told Moshe Rabbeinu that whenever the Jews sin, they should recite the 13 Middos and they will be forgiven.

Why do we say the 13 Middos so often during the Selichos before Rosh Hashanah, during the days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and on Yom Kippur itself? If HaShem promised us that we just need to say it and we’ll be forgiven, we should just say it once and we’ll be good to go.

mevaqesh
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DonielF
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    Presumably it's not magic; saying it so many times might mean we get it right at least once... – Isaac Kotlicky Oct 01 '17 at 03:21
  • @IsaacKotlicky Yet we say you shouldn’t repeat the first Bracha of Shemoneh Esrei if you don’t have the proper kavanah, because you probably will mess it up the second time also... – DonielF Oct 01 '17 at 03:29
  • Different issue. There it's a problem of brocha levatala. Here you at worst are reciting a possuk. – Isaac Kotlicky Oct 01 '17 at 03:30
  • @IsaacKotlicky Here you are at worst reciting Devarim Shebekedushah. Not just any passuk - an individual can’t say this Tefillah (generally). – DonielF Oct 01 '17 at 03:31
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    But you're still acting as a tzibbur, which is muttar. – Isaac Kotlicky Oct 01 '17 at 03:32
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    @IsaacKotlicky Okay, new track. :) The Gemara does seem to imply that it’s magic, though clearly that’s not how anything in Judaism works. So I guess the first question to ask is: how does it work? – DonielF Oct 01 '17 at 03:34
  • This question is related to: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/61749/8775, which is especially relevant to your last comment. That question asks why it is efficacious in the first place. Answering that would probably be the first step to answering this. – mevaqesh Oct 01 '17 at 14:44
  • @mevaqesh According to the answer given there, one not only fails to answer why we say it so often, but also fails to answer why we say it at all. – DonielF Oct 01 '17 at 14:49
  • @DonielF Yup it was far from a satisfying answer, for as I note in comments, it is clear form many Rishonim (and IIRC Geonim) that it means saying them. I welcome further answers which I would gladly mark as correct. – mevaqesh Oct 01 '17 at 14:50

2 Answers2

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See this article by Rabbi Frand, where he discusses the related question of why it is that we do not always see the recital of the 13 middot actually being effective in practice.

He quotes two basic approaches:

  1. The Reishis Chochmah explains that the gemara referred to in the question is not actually talking about reciting the 13 Middos, but emulating them. This is inferred from the phrase ya-asu lefanai k’seder hazeh literally that they should do (i.e. act like) this list of middot.

  2. The Imrei Binah mantains that the gemara is indeed referring to reciting the middot, but that is only a necessary condition. In addition, one needs to have the mindset of a "shaliach tzibbur" i.e. to be praying on behalf of others as well as oneself.

I think you can use either of these approaches to answer the question here:

  1. We repeat the 13 middot over and over during Elul and the Yamim Noraim to drill into ourselves these attributes of Hashem which we are to emulate.

  2. We repeat them to give ourselves multiple chances of reciting them (at least once) with the feelings and prayers for others, which are required for them to "work".

Joel K
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  • The problem is if it means perform these attributes, then there is no source to recite it. The traditional recitation is based on a reading of the Gemara contrary to that of the Geonim and Rishonim upon which the recitation is based. – mevaqesh Oct 01 '17 at 18:03
  • I understand that the simple reading of the Gemara is not this way, but why can't these opinions understand the recitation as a way to remind us to act in accord with the middot? Is your question based on the paragraph of Kel Melech Yoshev? – Joel K Oct 01 '17 at 18:40
  • The fact that the simple reading of the Gemara is not like this is a separate problem. My point was that the first answer can't be the explanation for saying the 13, since saying the 13 in the first place is according to the other opinion. No the question is not based on the paragraph of el melekh yoshev, but that is a good point as well. That paragraph indicates that the reason to say the 13 is that that is what God indicated, clearly following the Geonim/Rishonim's reading, rather than the cute reading. – mevaqesh Oct 01 '17 at 18:53
  • How do you know (apart from Kel Melech Yoshev) for what reason we recite them? Maybe the explanation of the Gemara is the "cute" one, and the reason it was instituted that we say them is to teach us how we ought to be acting? – Joel K Oct 01 '17 at 19:47
  • How do you know it was instituted to say it???? – mevaqesh Oct 01 '17 at 20:01
  • You're right. I wasn't trying to necessarily talk about a formal institution. My thinking is as follows: We know we all say it. There's a Gemara in Rosh hashanah which seems relevant. There are at least 4 possibilities. 1. We say it because Hashem told us it's a good thing to say. 2. We say it because Hashem told us it's a good way to act, and we want to remind ourselves of that. 3. We say it for both of the above reasons, reading both interpretations into the Gemara (think pshat and drash). 4. We say it for some other reason, unrelated to the gemara. How do you know which of these is true? – Joel K Oct 01 '17 at 20:22
  • How do we know Hashem told us? Is there any record of such a tradition outside the gemara? I won't argue it. But it seems like a cute derash to me that requires quite a bit of mental gymnastics to even justify the practice. – mevaqesh Oct 01 '17 at 20:35
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When we say the 13 Middos, we are promised that they will not go unanswered, not that we will be forgiven for all of our sins. Even if our sins are not forgiven, they will still help in some other way (like healing a sick person, etc.) So we say the 13 Middos as often as we can so that maybe some of them will forgive our sins.

Rafael
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  • Are you referring to the selicha? This doesn't answer the Gemara. – DonielF Oct 02 '17 at 18:46
  • The Gemara does not say 'they will be forgiven for all their sins', but rather 'they will be forgiven'. They will be forgiven for something; a change will take place for the good. – Rafael Oct 02 '17 at 19:01
  • I'm not sure I follow the difference between "forgiven" and "forgiven for their sins." Sure, it does say "einah chozeres reikam - they won't be returned empty-handed," but you still need to deal with the wording of "mochel." – DonielF Oct 02 '17 at 19:08
  • The Gemara says ואני מוחל להם, 'And I will forgive them'. It does not say all of our sins will be forgiven, just 'And I will forgive them'. – Rafael Oct 03 '17 at 01:29
  • What’s going to be forgiven if not sins? – DonielF Oct 03 '17 at 01:46
  • Obviously our sins are going to be forgiven. But not all of them. – Rafael Oct 03 '17 at 14:15
  • I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. Why can’t you say that they will all be forgiven? – DonielF Oct 03 '17 at 14:33