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I was in Israel last summer (Rehovot) visiting a close friend and his wife. In one of our very long conversations with them she said, "I would say I am not Jewish, but I am a Zionist". (demographically she was a Jew) I asked her if it meant that she was not religious but identified more with the Jewish people as an ancient community. And she said something like "yeah, not exactly.." and they broke off. What is the difference?

Apologies if my question doesn't belong here.

Harel13
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yayu
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    Welcome to judaism.SE, and thanks very much for bringing your question here! – Isaac Moses May 24 '11 at 14:35
  • I would suggest that you ask your friend. Frankly, I think this question (as written) is unanswerable, but I'm hesitant to edit it because it's been here for so long and already has 4 answers. – Seth J Jul 02 '14 at 16:26

4 Answers4

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Jewish: Is the person a Jew. According to halacha, this is defined by whether or not the person's mother was Jewish or they converted from another religion to Judaism (and according to some authorities, if the person did not convert from Judaism to another religion, since according to some this would mean that they are no longer Jewish).

Zionist: Harder to define, and different people would give it different meanings. My attempt to define it would be:

  • The belief that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people and that it is the ideal place for a Jew to live (what some might call Jewish Nationalism).
  • Secular Zionism and Religious Zionism would diverge on what is the basis for this belief (SZ would base it more on national history while RZ would base it more on scriptural and halachic sources).
  • Some would find it important to also distinguish between those who believe that Jews should be settling the Land of Israel before the redemptive process has been completed (ie: today - see Secular and Religious Zionists above), while others (who would bristle at being labeled with the term Zionist - Satmar Hasidim being the easiest example) acknowledge the importance of the Land of Israel, but do not think that Jews belong there before the redemptive process has completed.

So if a person says that they are not Jewish but are a Zionist, then they are saying that they do not fit the requirements of being a Jew (or even if they do, they are themselves agnostic and couldn't care well about in what category halacha would place them), yet despite this they believe that Israel is for the Jewish people.

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Yaakov Ellis
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  • "(and the person did not convert to another religion)" - Are you implying that such a person would need to convert back if they wanted to be Jewish? – WAF May 24 '11 at 11:04
  • Presumably, though I have never looked into the issue in depth. – Yaakov Ellis May 24 '11 at 11:24
  • I think you made a typo: "and the person did not convert to another religion" should be "or the person converted from another religion". There is no halachic way to renounce your Judaism once you are Jewish, but you can become Jewish if you were born non-Jewish. – Shaul Behr May 24 '11 at 11:38
  • Not a typo, just edited for clarity. Meant to say that if they are Jewish and then converted to another religion, then they are no longer Jewish. – Yaakov Ellis May 24 '11 at 11:39
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    That is incorrect - a Jew who sins (including "converting" to another religion) remains a Jew. There is no halachic way to renounce your Judaism once you are Jewish. – Shaul Behr May 24 '11 at 11:41
  • @Shaul - it is at least a machloket. See Rambam, Hil. Mamrim 3:1-3 – Yaakov Ellis May 24 '11 at 11:54
  • @Yaakov - thanks for the link, but Rambam there doesn't say they cease to be Jewish. He does say that they're chayav misa, even without due judicial process - but he very tellingly states that their children remain Jewish and we should attempt to bring them closer to Torah. – Shaul Behr May 24 '11 at 12:03
  • @Shaul - true enough. I have edited my answer above to be less definitive in the status of someone who converts from Judaism, and I opened a different question on this specific issue. Look forward to discussing it there. – Yaakov Ellis May 24 '11 at 12:20
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    @Yaakov I'd quibble with your definition of "Zionist" a bit in that I think it should also include a sense that Jews ought to have sovereignty in the Land of Israel in contemporary times. I think there are plenty of anti-Zionists who feel that Jews ought to be in the Land but are against the idea of a state before the final Redemption. – Isaac Moses May 24 '11 at 14:39
  • @Isaac - I hear what you are saying. However, I think that you can also keep the definition above, and add another derivative: Post-Messianic Zionists (though the Satmar would probably take offense to the term). – Yaakov Ellis May 24 '11 at 15:28
  • @Yaakov While that would fit within "Zionist" as you've defined it, I don't think "Zionist" is normally used that way, which is why people so described would take offense. – Isaac Moses May 24 '11 at 15:31
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    @Isaac - point taken. I have edited the answer to add the distinction (see third bullet point) – Yaakov Ellis May 24 '11 at 16:06
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    @Yaakov Thanks! I still think that the idea of sovereignty is an important distiguisher. There are plenty of anti-Zionists who have chosen to settle in Israel, presumably because they think it's a good thing to do, but are vehemently opposed to the idea of a state. – Isaac Moses May 24 '11 at 16:18
  • @Isaac - I would make the argument that the self-proclaimed "anti-Zionist" who has chosen to settle in Israel is more of a real Zionist than the Modern Orthodox guy from the five towns who is a strong Israel supporter (politically and financially) but would never actually make aliyah. – Yaakov Ellis May 24 '11 at 17:27
  • @Yaakov I would counter that the former certainly does more to further the Zionist cause but still would neither self-identify as a Zionist nor fit into the standard definition of the term, which describes beliefs rather than effects. – Isaac Moses May 24 '11 at 17:41
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    @Yaakov: Every satmar chosid would agree that ERETZ Yisroel is the holiest of holy, and that dira's eretz yisroel is a big Mitzvah. None of them would argue that. The issue they have is with the MEDINAS Yisroel, the idea of having a Jewish State, a home, before Meshiach comes. Therefore, this sentence is wrong IMO: "...but do not think that Jews belong there before the redemptive process has completed" – BFree May 24 '11 at 17:45
  • @Isaac - I define Zionism as including more than just political implications. If a Jew is living in Israel because they see it as being a mitzvah, then I call this a form of Zionism. @BFree - You think that the Satmar would support and encourage Jews to live in Israel before mashiach comes? – Yaakov Ellis May 24 '11 at 18:07
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    @Yaakov: Absolutley! Go to bnei brak, there's a HUGE and beautiful satmar shul. There's a HUGE kehila, with both boys and girls schools that are FULL. They however are very much anti-medina. They are of the only schools where there's NO hebrew spoken, and everything is in Yiddish. No one can argue the mitzvah of diras e"Y.... Even satmar doesn't have the chutzpah to argue with the Rambam ;) – BFree May 25 '11 at 00:08
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Judaism is a religion with established (though somewhat flexible) emotions and practices of serving G-d. It is binding on those who are born into it. Some practice more, some less, some not at all.

Zionism is a belief in the importance of Eretz Yisrael which guides the emphases of emotions and practices within the religion and within life.

Some one who is born in America (and stays) is bound by the Constitution. There are different ideas about how to practice the Constitution (conservative, libertarian, socialist, etc.) Someone who is not a naturalized citizen can have a great respect for the country as well as an ideal of how the laws should be practiced. They can even hold demonstrations to try to affect society even if they can't vote.

In the same way, a non-Jew can have opinions about ideology of Jewish religion or life.

YDK
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    I would remove the first use of the word "religious" in your second paragraph. Zionism is in and of itself not a religious belief. There are many religious Zionists (or Religious Zionists, or religious zionists or Religious zionists) with various degrees of interconnectedness between their religious beliefs and their Zionist beliefs. But that does not make the whole enterprise a religious one. It can range from the religious to the philosophical to the political and encompass different facets of all three. – Seth J May 24 '11 at 15:10
  • According to Orthodox Judaism, yes. But according to Reform, no. For more information, look at this article subsection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Jews_who_have_practiced_another_faith – Adam Mosheh Mar 25 '12 at 03:38
  • @AdamMosheh, please explain what part of the answer you are commenting on and clarify your question. – YDK Mar 25 '12 at 04:07
  • @YDK - "It is binding on those who are born into it." – Adam Mosheh Mar 25 '12 at 04:08
  • Granted, I wrote my answer based on my orthodox practices. You are welcome to comment otherwise in this section, down-vote me for not liking my answer, or offer your own answer. – YDK Mar 25 '12 at 04:17
  • My answer is in the first comment that I made on this answer. I was trying to be neutral while answering, neither Orthodox nor Reform. Personally, I am orthodox, but our FAQ states that mi.yodeya is for people interested in learning Jewish Law. Jewish Law means different things to different people. I may not agree with all other people, but I believe that they should have a say and their opinions should be made known, since they are Jewish. And there is nothing wrong with saying that they are Jewish while mentioning that they are Reform as well, right? Or am I wrong? – Adam Mosheh Mar 25 '12 at 05:32
  • Answers need not include everyone's personal approaches to Judaism unless that is the point of the question. Those that disagree with any words of the answer are free to comment as you did. – YDK Mar 25 '12 at 05:47
  • Btw, edits to the actual answer should be limited to correcting grammar, text flow or adding links and such. – YDK Mar 25 '12 at 05:48
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Wow, some very interesting opinions here. With all due respect, I beg to differ. Zionism is not hard to define, and it is not a religious belief. Zionism is Jewish nationalism, plain and simple. Zionism is a belief that Jews, like all other peoples, have the right of self-determination in their historic homeland, Eretz Yisrael. It is a belief that Jews have the right to govern themselves in their own country.

Defining what it means to be Jewish, on the other hand, is a bit tricky. On the one hand, there is a simple halachic definition: a Jew is a person whose mother is a Jew, or a person who converted to Judaism.

On the other hand, who the Jews are as a group somewhat depends on who you ask. Most Americans will tell you that Jews are a religious group, like Catholics or Muslims. But most Russians will tell you that Jews are an ethnic group, like the Russians, the French, or the Japanese. Surprisingly, while it is perfectly normal for somebody to be both Jewish and American at the same time, the notions of being Russian and being Jewish are mutually exclusive. There are historic reasons for that, which deserve a whole separate discussion.

Personally, I believe that Jews are an ethnic group, and that one can not stop being Jewish any more than one can stop being Italian. While the food, the customs, and the languages of different Jewish communities vary widely, they have always been distinct from those of non-Jews. Because of that, I think it makes sense to talk about a very diverse, but nevertheless a very distinct Jewish culture.

Having said that, I am not dismissing religion at all. The ethnic and the religious components of the Jewish identity are virtually inseparable. It is Judaism that is the common heritage of all Jewish communities all over the world, which provides the core basis for the Jewish culture.

Getting back to your question. To me it makes no sense for somebody who is "demographically" Jewish to say "I am not Jewish...". On the other hand, it is certainly possible for one to be Jewish and to be against the idea of a Jewish state, as much as I would disagree with such a person. Or one can be a non-Jew and agree that Jews, like all other peoples have the right of self-determination, and thus be a Zionist.

Dima
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  • @Dima, I don't get your last paragraph. Its last sentence seems to contradict the "makes no sense to me" in its first. – Isaac Moses May 24 '11 at 15:52
  • @Isaac Moses, how about now? – Dima May 24 '11 at 16:03
  • @Dima. Yes, that makes sense now. Thanks. – Isaac Moses May 24 '11 at 16:05
  • @Isaac Moses. No problem. – Dima May 24 '11 at 16:09
  • I like your definition of Zionism, but not so much your definition of Judaism. Being Jewish has a strict halachic definition. As much as Judaism may have a culture, having "Jewish culture" does not make someone Jewish. – jake May 24 '11 at 16:46
  • @jake, and I do cite the strict halachic definition. My point is that Jews collectively are not only a religious group, but also an ethnic one. If one converts to Judaism, one becomes a member of the Jewish people, i. e. the Jewish nation. And even if a Jew never goes to shul and doesn't keep kosher, he is still a Jew. – Dima May 24 '11 at 17:54
  • @Dima, Yes, that may be true, but I was simply trying to say that Jewish culture has no influence over the definition of a Jew. You say, Defining what it means to be Jewish, on the other hand, is a bit tricky. but it is not tricky at all. Your subsequent "simple halachic definition" is all there is to it. "Who the Jews are as a group" is irrelevant. – jake May 24 '11 at 18:28
  • @jake The word "Jewish" has a strict Halachic definition, and, like it or not, a less-well-defined ethnic/cultural definition. The question at hand is what an individual may mean when she says that she's "not Jewish," so all definitions that she may have in mind are germane. – Isaac Moses May 24 '11 at 18:44
  • @IsaacMoses, Fair enough. – jake May 24 '11 at 18:53
  • @jake Once again I beg to differ. Who the Jews are as a group is very relevant, especially to the question about the terms "Jewish" and "Zionist". Jews being a nation is basis of Jewish nationalism, aka Zionism. – Dima May 24 '11 at 19:12
  • @Dima, I apologize; you are correct. Although Jewish culture is irrelevant to the definition of "Jewish" in a halachic sense, it is indeed relevant as an answer to this question, as one may or may not describe themselves as Jewish depending on how "emotionally Jewish" or "culturally Jewish" they are. – jake May 24 '11 at 19:45
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Judaism consists of the religious belief and practice aspect of the the Jewish people. More correctly Jewish is an ethnicity. While Judaism has religious beliefs and rituals someone is determined to be Jewish if 1) their mother is Jewish 2)they have converted by accepting all religious beliefs, practices, and rituals and have been declared so by a Jewish court who will require mikvah, circumcision for males, and will give a certificate acknowledging this persons acceptance into the Jewish people.

Zionism is a political movement that was started by Theodore Herzl which believed that to eliminate antisemitism Jews must have a country of our own. In doing so the Jewish people would become normalized in the eyes of the international community as a legitimate nation through actions of self-determinism. The original plan for Zionism was to have a country and any country. Eventual this idea evolved to making a portion of the biblical land of Israel into the modern Jewish country that would fulfill the goals of Zionism.

Many Jews are Zionist as they identify with the Zionist political movement, many are Zionists for other reasons, and many are not. Today what Zionism means to an individual may not necessarily reflect the political views of its founder and can vary from individual to individual. There are also many non-Jews who are also Zionists today. There are varying reasons for them to be Zionists. Among some of the reasons non-Jews may find themselves supporting Israel is they support the existence of a democratic style country in a hostile area of the world and because of Israel's many very positive contributions to society in realms of business, literature, art, medicine, science, and technology. Others are Zionist because their own faith believes that in order for their hope of the messianic age (return of Jesus) will only be fulfilled by Jews living in the land of Israel)

Dude
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