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This is part of a series of questions on the Gemara in Bechoros 8b-9a. Below is a summary of the relevant parts of the Gemara. After being challenged by Caesar, R' Yehoshua went to Athens to defeat the Athenian Elders in a battle of wits.

The Elders asked R' Yehoshua during their debate where the center of the world was. R' Yehoshua stuck a finger out (we can only hope it wasn't his middle one) and said, "It's right here."

"Prove it," the Elders demanded.

"Bring a rope, and we can measure it," R' Yehoshua replied.

Now, the Greeks knew that that the world was round; they thus didn't believe that the center of the Earth was anywhere on the surface. It's unclear what Chazal in general held - each Tanna seemed to hold something different. Nevertheless, whatever you think R' Yehoshua held, there's an issue. If R' Yehoshua held the world was round, the center couldn't be on the surface. If he held the world was flat, how could he tell with such precision that he just so happened to be in the middle of the world, and that it's not a few inches to the side?

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DonielF
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  • If you understand center to mean center of the surface, then his response is perfectly consistent with a round earth. Any point will be the center of a rope going around the circumference, so any arbitrary point is equally the center. That being said, the response is probably more about the un-provability of any assertion he would make than a statement of exact location. Since you can't get ropes to measure, any answer he would give would be un-provable, and he was making that point. – Yishai Aug 17 '16 at 22:11
  • To be fair, the Earth isn't perfectly round, but that doesn't necessarily make a difference. Nevertheless, he did ask for ropes to measure to prove his assertion. – DonielF Aug 17 '16 at 22:15
  • He asked for something he knew they couldn't provide (rope long enough to measure). – Yishai Aug 17 '16 at 22:52
  • So, you're saying this question follows this one? – DonielF Aug 17 '16 at 22:54
  • R"Y's answer seems WAAAY off our tradition - why didn't they reply with Jerusalem being the center and the Stone of Shtiya the exact point and prove it from Psukim? I don't really know where to file this Sugya - either in Hashkafa or science. I tend to science and we lost that battle. – Al Berko Apr 01 '19 at 18:34
  • Once and for all, let us all stop the phantasy of being scientifically advanced over other nations at any point of history and in any field. We're so biased on this it's embarrassing. The flat earth theory served Judaism faithfully for millennia up to HaGoen (as per my question) or even later. – Al Berko Apr 01 '19 at 18:39
  • @AlBerko https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/22852/ cites many early sources that indicate that Chazal knew the world was round. – DonielF Apr 01 '19 at 18:44
  • Pleeeese raise above that level of argumentation. Those sources CAN BE UNDERSTOOD AS round Earth AFTER you know that as a fact. Another bias is that you don't ask What Chazal statements clearly contradict the round Earth. – Al Berko Apr 01 '19 at 18:51
  • @Al How do you understand the Yerushalmi? A statue holding a sphere is presumed to be idolatry, with the symbolism being that it represents a deity's power over the globe. That's what the Yerushalmi says. At most you can argue that it was debated among Chazal whether it was flat or round, but there's clearly evidence that it was round; I don't see how to interpret that Yerushalmi any other way. – DonielF Apr 01 '19 at 18:53
  • Wait, let's decide on terminology. By "knowing" I mean acknowledging it in practice. For example - 10 kids hold numbers 1-10 and I ask 2x4? Saying the right answer does not mean knowing it, but USING that knowledge proves it. Nowhere close in the Jewish Halacha the Round Earth was an issue, like - keeping Shabbos in diff. time zones, on the poles, date line etc. That proves to me the Rabbis never "knew" it, as I defined knowledge. – Al Berko Apr 01 '19 at 19:06
  • @Al 1. Or perhaps since the question wasn't practical, and it didn't come up in their discussions, they didn't address it. (Btw, time zones do come up in Rosh HaShanah 20b, technically.) Let me ask you this: According to your logic, it was widely known that the world is round by the 20th century. Why, then, did it take the Mir going to Shanghai for the Date Line discussion to take place? 2. Isn't the Yerushalmi I cited a practical application of the Earth being round? If it were a flat circle, then it would be a statue holding a circle that would be forbidden, not one holding a sphere. – DonielF Apr 01 '19 at 21:30
  • @DonielF Sorry I didn't understand "why did it take ... to take place"? – Al Berko Apr 01 '19 at 21:48
  • @AlBerko If you define knowledge as the ability to apply it to something, and you prove that Chazal didn’t know this since “Nowhere close in the Jewish Halacha the Round Earth was an issue...” Maybe it’s just because they didn’t find it practical. When it was practical, it was discussed, even though 1943(ish?) was well after it was known that the world was round. – DonielF Apr 01 '19 at 22:00
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – Al Berko Apr 01 '19 at 22:12

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As you say, the debate was a battle of wits. It is important to keep this in mind when analyzing it. We should not expect the account to necessarily yield many substantive insights -- that is not its point. We should instead expect to find structural brilliance: good argumentation, solid comebacks and sharp turnarounds. That is exactly is what we find here.

The Athenians asked him a question seemingly impossible to answer: where is the center of the earth? Whether they thought the earth was round or flat, they certainly did not think there was any chance he could identify the exact location of its center. They thought they had him beat.

Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananiah countered brilliantly. He pointed to a random spot and said "here." This was brilliant because no matter what they believed (assuming even that they had a belief) he knew they would not be able to refute him. When they asked "who says?" he countered "bring rope and measure!" They obviously did not have enough rope, so he won the round.

Dov F
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The Athenians were asking the Jew... "Where is the "center" of your spirituality, now that the Temple is destroyed?"

A Greek understood that a certain holy site was a focal point of the religion in question. If one Greek city held possession of the "Temple of the Oracle" for instance, then the oracle was the place where all holiness for that city supplied the city (blessing, protection, etc.). Also, all land outside the holy place was nothing of spiritual value. If an enemy state attacked and conquered the holy site, it would demoralize the Greeks since they "lost" their center of spirituality and could not replace it. (The gods have abandoned us etc.).

The Greeks wanted to know how the Jews could still claim connection to Torah life if the "Temple Center" was destroyed.

R' Yehoshuah answered that the center of the Torah world and manifestation of G-d's true presence is anywhere. You don't need a Temple Center to connect. They asked for proof. He responded that one must do the spiritual work (prayer, chesed, Torah midos etc.) and then you will know you are connected. That seems to be the mashal.

David Kenner
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