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And the Philistines seized him, and gouged out his eyes. And they brought him down to Gaza, and bound him with copper chains, and he did grind in the prison house.

    כאוַיֹּאחֲזוּהוּ פְלִשְׁתִּים וַיְנַקְּרוּ אֶת עֵינָיו וַיּוֹרִידוּ אוֹתוֹ עַזָּתָה וַיַּאַסְרוּהוּ בַּנְחֻשְׁתַּיִם וַיְהִי טוֹחֵן בְּבֵית הָאֲסוּרִים (כתיב הָאֲסיּרִים) :

I apologize if the title is incorrect

TheTribeOfJudah
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This is indeed what Rabi Yochanan says in maseches Sota 10a.

user6591
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    So is this an opinion or is this what actually happened? Does anybody dissagree with Rabbi Yochanan? – TheTribeOfJudah Jun 01 '15 at 00:02
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    Ah. Welcome to the land of aggadata homilies. I will be called either a heretic or an imbecile by a large segment of Judaism, depending on whether I answer yes or no to your question. – user6591 Jun 01 '15 at 00:06
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    @user6591 Just to take away your safe option, I'll call you a coward for not taking a stance. +1! – Y     e     z Jun 01 '15 at 02:18
  • @yez nobody here but us chickens:) One of the kids asked by the shabbos table 'are dinosaurs real?' I weasled out by saying 'well their bones are real'. I should've just pointed behind him and said 'look! a distraction!' and taken the opportunity to run. I can take a stance, but other people suffer too if my view doesn't fit in societies mold. Off the record I'm a Hirschian Jew when it comes to these things. I'm sure you know what that means. – user6591 Jun 01 '15 at 02:29
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    @user6591 Midrash is often a means of explaining many mysteries of the past while simultaneously leaving us new ones for the future. In short, Rav Yochanan stated this. How would we know if he is right or wrong? Does he cite his source, and assuming it's from a Midrash, how do we know ITS source? – DanF Jun 01 '15 at 02:46
  • @DanF that echoes the basic Hirschian approach. Agadda is not from Sinai. I just haven't spelled that out to my kids being that most religious institutions and communities run with a different thought process. As it is my son is embarrassed to let his friends know he calls me daddy and not Totty or Abba like they all do :) – user6591 Jun 01 '15 at 02:51
  • @user6591 What can I say? I've debated my kids' rebbes occasionally, in the past. Sometimes I win, too ;-) You might want to try it, if needed, though not in the presence of your son. – DanF Jun 01 '15 at 02:57
  • @DanF ashrei chelkicha: ) – user6591 Jun 01 '15 at 03:08
  • @DanF I was forced into discussing reality with my son this morning at the bus stop when he told me he heard that a person's spine turns into a snake if he doesn't bow in Shmoneh Essrei. Ah. Thank you Rav Hirsch. I told him the agadata idea. B.H. cause afterwards he very happily said good, cause I don't believe that. I gave him a little mussar to say that in a more respectful way, and to recognize a mashal for what it Is. Just thought you'd like to know:) – user6591 Jun 09 '15 at 14:56
  • @user6591 Interesting story. But IIRC, it doesn't say that the spine becomes a snake (this is from Mishnah Brurah or what source is this from?) It says that you should bow far enough so that the spine becomes shaped like a snake. At any rate, you can explain to your son that if his spine DID become a snake, would he have to see a vet or a chiropractor to treat the condition? – DanF Jun 09 '15 at 15:06
  • @DanF see Bava Kama end of 16a. – user6591 Jun 09 '15 at 15:21
  • More broadly see http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/53349/belief-in-midrashim/53351?s=6|0.0377#53351 – mevaqesh Jul 06 '15 at 20:37
  • @mevaqesh to clarify, my point was not whether one must, should, or could believe the Agadata. My point was societal norms as far as this subject goes. – user6591 Jul 06 '15 at 20:45
  • @user6591 I don't follow your meaning. Do you mean relationships with non-Jews? – mevaqesh Jul 06 '15 at 20:47
  • @mevaqesh no. The average chareidi (why am I backed into using that term?!) Will call you a slew of nasty words if imply you don't believe every agadata kipashtuso. The more open minded ones will say well you have to at least believe it's possible to be true kipashtuso. They might even throw in the gal shel atzamos story. If you would quote any one of the sources you mentioned in that excellent answer of yours, they'll say 'we don't hold like that'. My point was self protection from religious imbecile bullies, and protection of my children from that ilk. – user6591 Jul 06 '15 at 20:52
  • @user6591 Sorry I still am not following exactly. Are you looking for sources regarding this particular Aggada? BTW thanks for the compliment. BTW I wish you and your children success. – mevaqesh Jul 06 '15 at 22:21
  • @mevaqesh no. Thank you. Rabbi Hirsch addressed this particular agadata in a letter which recently became more readily available in volume nine of his collected writings. I'm happy with that, but always willing to hear more. Again, my point was that truth and reality sometimes have to take a back seat to social norms. Until they can be dealt with appropriately. Unfortunately society (at least the one I live in) is way way off base, so it's really hard to proceed sometimes. Thank you for the bracha and the same to you and yours:) – user6591 Jul 06 '15 at 22:27
  • @user6591 Well, I think I am an average charedi, and it never ever occurred to me to take it literally that someone's spine would turn into a snake. Clearly a moshul for something or other, interesting, see mefarshim... that's what I would have always said. I have no doubt that my rebbeim would say the same. – MichoelR Feb 23 '21 at 20:21
  • @user6591 "The more open minded ones will say well you have to at least believe it's possible to be true kipashtuso." No - it is 100% true. But not kipashtuso. The Maharal said this very clearly, many times, and I've never doubted it. – MichoelR Feb 23 '21 at 20:23