6

In the collection of Rav Soloveitchik’s responsa Community, Covenant and Commitment, there is a series of letters railing against mixed seating in the synagogue. Amongst the points raised there is a claim made in letter 18, pg 134. I quote:

When primitive Christianity arose as a sect in the Holy Land, and began to slowly introduce reforms, one of the innovations which the sect established at once in the externals of synagogue practice was to have men and women sit together. In many instances mixed seating was the unmistakable sign by which a Jew could recognize that he had found not a place of sanctity for Jews to pray, but rather a prayer-house for a deviant sect; for in those times the Christians had not yet formally differentiated themselves from traditional Jewry. As a sect they endeavored to hide their identity, and only through certain definite signs could they be recognized.

Where is the source for this?

Y     e     z
  • 58,536
  • 3
  • 109
  • 249
user6591
  • 33,638
  • 2
  • 39
  • 81
  • I highly respect the Rav זצ”ל, but I find this hard to believe. This sounds like conflation to me. – Noach MiFrankfurt Oct 07 '14 at 15:20
  • @TRiG -- do you have any input on this? – MTL Oct 07 '14 at 15:26
  • 1
    @NoachmiFrankfurt What do you think he's conflating? – MTL Oct 07 '14 at 15:28
  • @Noach mi Frankfurt Its just hard to imagine he woud make up or mix up something like this. This was written in the fifties, what was arguably his prime. – user6591 Oct 07 '14 at 15:31
  • None, @Shokhet. Certainly the majority of modern Christian denominations have mixed seating, but I couldn't say when the practice started. This question has already (due to the [tag:christianity] tag) been automatically posted in The Upper Room, so it may yet garner attention from practising Christians. – TRiG Oct 07 '14 at 15:47
  • @Shokhet, while it is unarguable that by the 18th c. mixed seating was used in the church, it seems unlikely that such a reform would have existed when Christianity was merely a small sect, rather than the religion it's become. So I think he is conflating the reform movement with early Christianity. – Noach MiFrankfurt Oct 07 '14 at 15:47
  • @user6591, I agree, he was a highly dynamic individual who was noted for his learning in both secular and religious fields. For thoughts on why I think this is conflation, see above – Noach MiFrankfurt Oct 07 '14 at 15:48
  • @user6591 Hm...haven't seen the letter inside, so can't tell. – MTL Oct 07 '14 at 15:56
  • 1
    Historically, seating in churches was always complex and involved many factors, gender among them. 'Mixed seating' as we'd understand grew in approx. late 17th century, merely because there were more important seating considerations (social status, age) – הנער הזה Oct 07 '14 at 16:18
  • This from John M. Neale, "The History of Pew" – הנער הזה Oct 07 '14 at 16:20
  • See here page 81. – Yishai Oct 07 '14 at 18:07
  • @Yishai you mean to prove that the opposite is true? – user6591 Oct 07 '14 at 18:22
  • 1
    @user6591, no, although that would be the point of the academic consensus that this article is arguing. I think rather the point is that on page 81 there is an explicit reference that pre-4th century Christian practice was not separate. That may be what he was referring to. Obviously R. YBS would be of the opinion that separate seating was the Jewish practice all along. – Yishai Oct 07 '14 at 18:25
  • @Yishai ah. Gotcha. Great article btw. Thanks. But that shita does seem batul brov. And if in fact Christians were sitting seperate before they broke off completely and within a few centuries they were separate again, its hard to imagine that they sat mixed in the begining, a dangerously obvious admition of separation from mainstreme Judaism. – user6591 Oct 07 '14 at 18:36
  • @user6591, it would be a strange thing to make yourself separate about, but then again we don't really know all the social dynamics at play in those times. Anyway, I wasn't advocating for R. YBS's position, just suggesting a possible source for his thinking. – Yishai Oct 07 '14 at 18:42

1 Answers1

1

In this answer from Christianity.StackExchange there is good evidence that Christians were not mixing the sexes during prayer/worship gatherings in the 1st century. It states that St. Cyril of Jerusalem notes in the 4th century that men and women were still separated.

Further consider 1 Cor. 14:34-35 of the Christian scriptures where Paul states

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Along with other verses that advise women to wear hats, submit to their husbands, teach only younger women and never men, etc. this is a good indication that the first Christians were very Jewish in their gender roles.

With this in mind, it seems that Rav Soloveitchik’s quote is not well founded.

Community
  • 1
  • I thank you for bringing this to my attention. However, the author of that answer himself writes " It is clear that Jesus challenged this trend in His public ministry. Even still, by the fourth century it appears that men and women were separated in churches, as St. Cyril of Jerusalem says," he himself makes an unfounded claim of Jesus unifying the sexes in prayer. His own link however says no such thing. In fact that entire link Is fanciful historical imagination at play. It lays a claim that women were not invited to synagogue? The holy temple should negate that claim from the get- go. – user6591 Jun 10 '15 at 17:06
  • Up until very recently, perhaps in the last few centuries, women felt obligated to go to synagogue, more so to hear the Torah being read than to join in the prayers! I can't go through every point I feel was conflated, but suffice it to say there are many assumptions being thrown around. – user6591 Jun 10 '15 at 17:08
  • @user6591 Yes, I think it's a matter of opinion that Jesus challenged the trend. I cannot find a part that says women were not allowed to synagogue. I see "The women were not required to attend the annual festivals only men were (Exod. 23:17; Lev.23-- three times a year men had to attend the feasts Deut.16:16). Women were permitted to attend if they chose to do so (1 Sam. 1:9, 21-22)" which seems to say the opposite. –  Jun 10 '15 at 17:54