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When it comes to shidduchim, the extreme ultra-orthodox (both chassidim and non-chassidim) often seem to discriminate against equally (or even more) religious (children of) baalei t'shuva, gerim, persons of color, b'nei niddah, and others of "lesser yichus".

Lev Tahor is an example of an extreme ultra-orthodox chassidic community that makes shidduchim regardless of yichus, etc. However that community is both controversial and remote.

Where could an extreme ultra-orthodox baal t'shuva realistically find a shidduch?

Note: This question is asked out of curiosity, as I am happily married, B"H.

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Adám
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  • go to a shadhan? – MoriDowidhYa3aqov Aug 20 '14 at 23:49
  • @IsaacMoses Why? Do they not objectively have lesser yichus? – Adám Aug 21 '14 at 14:00
  • @MoriDoweedhYaa3qob Of course, but my question was exactly that: Where to go. Most shadchanim just turn down such people. – Adám Aug 21 '14 at 14:06
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    What does "extreme ultra-orthodox" mean, exactly? But either way, the fundamental answer stands - they are unlikely to be the only one in the group, so that makes opportunities. – Yishai Aug 21 '14 at 14:26
  • @Yishai Bnei Yoel, Mishkenos HoRoim, Neturei Karta, Toldos Aharon, etc. Absolutely, but where are those opportunities? I intended my question to get answers that would make it easier for others find the right places. (Hint: I wouldn't recommend going to where I went.) – Adám Aug 21 '14 at 15:05
  • @NBZ, I'm not sure there's such a thing as "objectively lesser yichus." Yichus gradations are defined by the community that takes them into account. – Isaac Moses Aug 21 '14 at 16:02
  • Was this a real question or a veiled criticism? – user6591 Aug 21 '14 at 16:04
  • @user6591 Who are you asking? – Adám Aug 21 '14 at 16:14
  • @NBZ ... so I added the scare quotes to make it clear that the concept of "lesser yichus" in question is, in fact, a subjective one defined by whatever community. Otherwise, readers are more likely to get the impression that Judaism somehow intrinsically de-values, e.g. persons of color. – Isaac Moses Aug 21 '14 at 16:30
  • @IsaacMoses Doesn't it? – Adám Aug 21 '14 at 17:14
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    @NBZ No. It does not. – Isaac Moses Aug 21 '14 at 17:20
  • @ nbz- I was asking you. – user6591 Aug 21 '14 at 18:07
  • @user6591 I assure you it was a real and well-meant question, inspired by a friend's (and my own past) struggles. I do suspect Isaac Moses is mistaken, but I am okay with the fact that Judaism sometimes seems harsh. – Adám Aug 21 '14 at 18:20
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    I understand completely. I am not a baal tshuva, but had my own bad experiences due to low yichus level. I dont agree however with the tactic of venting by veiling it as asking. Lets call a spade a spade. Every community basically sticks to their own, and narrow minded blindness rules. My sister married a modern orthodox boy. His community members were grumbling at the chupa 'i can't believe it! She's chareidi, does she even have an education?' etc and so on. Lets all just pray for our own acceptance of others and in that zchus Moshiach. – user6591 Aug 21 '14 at 18:37
  • This is less than an answer but more than a comment -- if you hear they're suggesting a shidduch that's ridiculously "out of your league", it's probably too good to be true -- e.g. s/he's related to a big-name rosh yeshiva, but they're not telling you that the actual person in question has severe behavioral problems. – Shalom Aug 21 '14 at 14:44
  • why do you ask specifically about (whatever you consider to be) an "extreme ultra-orthodox" bt? – Dude Sep 10 '14 at 02:44
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    @Dude Because the system in place for more regular BTs works fairly well. – Adám Sep 13 '14 at 22:27
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    @ NBZ which current system works fairly well for bts. Quite a large percentage of Jews will not even consider dating a baal teshuva. Also who is considered regular and who is considered extreme? – Dude Oct 07 '14 at 20:19
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    @Dude BT yeshivos and girls' schools have (connection to) shadchanim who form an informal global network. Generally BTs will end up marrying BTs, and children of BTs each other, etc., but occasionally one level skewed. Who? E.g. – Adám Oct 14 '14 at 00:05
  • @Adám I don't know much about the "extreme" world, but if my extrapolation from my own experiences is correct, it seems they could be eligible for shidduchim with divorced people, much older people, or others on the second tier because of yichus (BT parents), frumkeit/worldliness, or other so-called problems – SAH Mar 13 '18 at 02:07
  • @Adám Also, didn't the head of Neturei Karta marry a giyores? She was exceptional, but still.. – SAH Mar 13 '18 at 02:08
  • @SAH As far as I remember, that was due to a medical problem. – Adám Mar 13 '18 at 06:41
  • @Adám Oh wow. Was looking this up and found exactly what you said. The citation linked to a case called "The Edah HaChareidis versus McDonald's." I can only imagine... – SAH Mar 13 '18 at 09:16
  • @Adám Do you happen to know why the Vaad still prohibited their marriage? – SAH Apr 09 '18 at 02:14
  • Isn't ba'al teshuva and bnei niddah the same thing? – alicht Apr 05 '19 at 20:24
  • @alicht A ba'al teshuva has returned (because he or his ancestors left) to orthodoxy, while a ben niddah's mother was a niddah when he was conceived. While they often coincide for obvious reasons, a ba'al teshuva may have been born to a family that kept the laws of family purity, and a "frum from birth" ben niddah may be due to a mistake or because the mother became a ba'alas teshuva. – Adám Apr 06 '19 at 20:34

2 Answers2

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Generally with other ulta-orthodox baalei t'shuva or other people with similar backgrounds. That is a good idea, regardless, as the compatibility is more likely to be there. (The only exception to your list is persons of color - my observation is that they tend to find a person of a different color who doesn't have a hangup about it).

In addition, There are other members of the community that aren't on the "inside track" of shidduchim with which to make a shidduch, such as children of ba'alei Teshuva, etc. Compatibility has a lot to do with the age at which the person became a ba'al teshuva. If they started at 13/14 years old, and went through the regular school system at the end of their school years, it is very different than the 30 year old.

The main problem with this is that there is some view that those who are frum from birth from families with a long history of observance are somehow an inherently superior shidduch for a ba'al teshuva. In fact, compatibility in their life together is much more important.

In terms of where to find a Shadchan to make such a shidduch, the way to look is to find recently married people of similar circumstances and ask them how they made their shidduch, and follow those leads. You can also ask people who aren't married in a similar circumstance - perhaps they found a lead and are "in the parsha".

In the type of groups you are talking about, there are always people in the group who are very into knowing who is related to who and how they form the circle of the group (call it Olympic level Jewish geography). As such, some people always know who the Ba'al Teshuva is, so you can find out by asking around.

I am reminded of a story where a Ba'al Teshuva wrote to the Lubavitcher Rebbe that he was having a hard time finding a shidduch for his children. The Rebbe wrote him back that the other Chassidim he inherited from his father-in-law, the Ba'alei Teshuva he chose as Chassidim.

I'll tell you another story about someone I know who is in a Chabad community. He is not a Ba'al Teshuva at all (from a long line of non-Chabad Chassidim with many generations of Yichus) however he had a hard time with a Shidduch for his son because he kept the traditional clothing - streimel, etc. which was out of the norm for a Chabad family. So he looked for a Shidduch in Chassidic communities that demand large dowries from the girls (there is no such thing in Chabad circles). He found a good family that happened to be poor - and they were more than happy to make the Shidduch.

Anyway, the bottom line is that there are many such shidduchim made all the time, where people don't fit the pre-defined mold, and shadchanim who specialize in them. However, there does need to be an adjustment of expectations, which is a good thing for a happy marriage.

Yishai
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Many baal-teshuva yeshivas in Israel specialize in making shiduchim, often between their talmidim and an affiliated girls' seminary. For example, I attended a yeshiva in Jerusalem made up mostly of baalei teshuva (already frum; not a kiruv yeshiva). During my time there, many students became engaged and married, often to students at the yeshiva's sister institution. Many of the rebbeim teach at both the yeshiva and the seminary, so they are in a good position to make shidduchim. In addition, there is the additional benefit (depending on your perspective) of being set up with another BT who understands where you are coming from and is being taught in a place with a similar hashkafa to where you are learning.

Daniel
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