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Recently I began davening mincha with a minyan that meets in college. When it comes to Tachanun, what is the correct procedure if there's no Sefer Torah in the room [and building]?

msh210
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yydl
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  • Not debating anything below, but just pointing out that Rabbi Artscroll Siddur says not to lean, and I suspect that's caused that practice to win out in much of America. – Shalom Sep 16 '10 at 14:34
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    Shalom, it was common not to lean before Rabbi Artscroll was ordained! ;-} – Yahu Oct 06 '10 at 05:52

4 Answers4

5

Sit, but do not fall/lean/cover your face on or with your arm. (S.A., O.C., 131, 2) i.e. Say it the way Sefardim say it even when in a Beis Hakneses, even with a Sefer Torah there.

Yahu
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  • Why do you need to sit? – YDK Aug 17 '10 at 05:25
  • Look in MB SK yud – Yahu Aug 17 '10 at 05:46
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    Bais Yosef says it is Al Pi Kabbalah. – Yahu Aug 17 '10 at 06:23
  • Sitting is one level of Nefilas Apayim, covering the face is another. This is the reason for the Rema's Lashon of "kisui panim". Look in the Darchei Moshe 131, 3 you will see that there are different levels of Nefilas Apayim. http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14265&st=&pgnum=222 – Yahu Aug 17 '10 at 06:38
  • Those Kabbalistic reasons can be found in Shaar HaKavvanot 46d and forward Drush alef handles why we say it in both shaharit and minha, and drush bet deals with the sitting part(though also discussed in the next two drushim as well). – Rabbi Michael Tzadok Aug 17 '10 at 07:42
  • The Bais Yosef and Mishna Berura are saying that when you put your head down, that is done sitting and defines Nefilas Apaim. We are talking without a Sefer Torah. – YDK Aug 17 '10 at 14:27
  • Yahu, I don't see that the Darchei Moshe is distinguishing kisui panim from a sitting tachanun without kisui. He's just saying that sometimes the tephila that we call nefilas apaim is done with kisui panim and sometimes not. – YDK Aug 17 '10 at 14:30
  • The Darchei Moshe first quotes the Agur in the name of the Mahari Molin that "Afila Yachid shehu chutz libeis hakineses yachol lipol tahanun im haTzibur" and on that the Darchei Moshe himself clearly says "Vi'Nir'eh DiGam Linyan Kisui Panim Ka'amar" which clearly indicates that that there are various levels that N'filas Apayim could be referring to and one might have wished to say that the Mahari Molin was referring to n'filas apayim but without kisui panim. If Kisui Panim is all that N'filas Apayim is, then why say "DiGam L'inyan Kisui Panim Ka'amar"? – Yahu Aug 17 '10 at 20:59
  • Yahu, my Darchei Moshe reads like a charm. The term Nefilas Apaim is a throwback to when a person was nofel al panav mamash and it's contemporary use is synonymous with saying tachanun. The Darchei Moshe references the Maharil who, when he finished tefila just as the tzibur started tachanun, would not return to his place but was "nafal al panav meumad" - he said tachanun standing. He then quotes the MhRI Molin that a yachid can "lipol tachanun" - say tachanun. The DM clarifies that he means with covering the face, otherwise "lamah lo yipol al panav bifnei atzmo" why not say tachanun alone. – YDK Aug 17 '10 at 23:16
  • (con't)- According to your reading, the Maharil did the technique of "nefilas apaim" standing, but you might have thought that the MHRI Molin meant to say to do the technique of nefilas apaim without covering the face and that is done davka sitting. – YDK Aug 17 '10 at 23:20
  • Actually the whole point of the Darchei Moshe is that the Mahari Molin must have meant even with kisui panim, and not as you might have thought only to sit and say Tahanun. His proof is because if he meant that it is only Muttar to sit, what is the problem of just sitting down and saying Tahanun when you are alone? Look at the language of the Darchei Moshe before he brings the Agur, he clearly refers to tahanun when there is no sefer Torah as "Omrim tehina blo kisui hapanim". – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 00:22
  • Look in the Kaf HaHaim, at the end of Os Lamed Hes http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41181&st=&pgnum=214 . It appears that our argument is a mahlokes between the Kaf HaHaim (and the Olas Tamid) and the Elyahu Raba how to understand the Maharil. – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:02
  • ספר אליהו רבה או"ח - סימן קלא (ו) הפתוח לבית הכנסת וכו'. ועל פי זה נוהגין ליפול בעזרת בית הכנסת ואם פתח נעול נופלים בלא כיסוי, כן כתב עולת תמיד בשם מהרי"ל. ותימא אם נופל מה לי בכיסוי, ובמהרי"ל גופיה לא כתב כן אלא זה לשונו יאמר תחינה בלי כיסוי עינים דאז לא מצי מקיים ויפול וכו', משמע דרוצה לומר דיאמר תחנון בלי נפילה כלל וקרי לנפילה כיסוי עינים כיון שמכסין בנפילה וזה נמי כוונת רמ"א ולבוש כמו שכתב אומרים התחנון בלא כיסוי פנים, דהא כתב להדיא הרוקח שאין נופלין במקום שאין ספר תורה, וכן משמע במנהגים ובכל אחרונים, אלא ודאי נפילות אפים קרוי כיסוי פנים וזה ברור ועיין בהגהות מנהגים – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:04
  • The Maharil clearly takes the term "Noflim" literally. If you understand noflim to mean "saying Tahanun" then what is his problem with the Olas Tamid and with the minhag? Now, I am not saying we should take it completely literally like the Eliyahu Rabbah, rather to understand it to mean to sit down and Kisui Panim to mean putting your face in your arm/sleeve. – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:10
  • By the way, the ER clearly holds that Kisui Panim is meant to be understood literally. Check this out: – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:13
  • ספר אליהו רבה או"ח - סימן קלא (ד) מיושב וכו'. מיהו כשמסיים תפילת שמונה עשרה והשליח ציבור יושב תיכף לתחנון או מתחיל ברכו או במוצאי שבת ויהי נועם יעמוד במקומו ויכסה פניו לכולי עלמא וכן כתב עולת שבת, ועיין לעיל סימן קכ"ג וכתב שבעלי קבלה מודים בזה, ודלא כמגן אברהם. ונראה לי דהוא הדין כשאומר תחנון בלי נפילה דאין להקפיד בישיבה, ונראה לי כשמתפלל אחר נגדו שאין רשאי לישב כדלעיל סימן ק"ב – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:13
  • And his second to last point is the one the Kaf HaChaim argues on and who I was saying like. – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:14
  • BTW, Maharil = Moreinu HaRav Yaakov Molin! The Darchei Moshe is explaining that although the Maharil holds one should not fall Tahanun when not in the Beis Hakneses (or by an open door) the Agur quotes Maharil as saying one may fall Tahanun at home if it is at the same time as the Tzibbur. DM adds that this must mean even with covering the face because falling Tahanun without covering the face is not a problem to do when alone. – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:37
  • So if it is not at the same time as the tzibbur one says Tahanun without covering the face and according to you the DM (Remah) holds one should not even sit when saying Tahanun alone (because you hold sitting is part of Kisui Panim.) I hold one should sit (because that is an essential part of N'filas Apayim) however one should not put his head down. – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:37
  • In order of your comments following my post: #1- You are repeating your pshat. You can take out the word "sit" from your pshat and it reads just fine. The DM uses the term techina w/o kisui panim because he is trying to distinguish, as opposed to when he is quoting or paraphrasing. #2 As my Rebbi ZT"L used to say- If you're on the right path, you meet people. However, if you are referring to the Olas Tamid quoted in #3, he may be with the Elya Rabba, but OT was using nefila like me and the ER mistakenly assumed he was using it like you, but they are in agreement. (That answers to #4, too) – YDK Aug 18 '10 at 02:19
  • (and #5/6 as well) #9 (final)- I'm not saying one should not sit. I am saying that when not doing kisuy, sitting is not necessary. When doing kisui, it is a machlokes. However, according to what you brought from the Kaf haChayim, w/o kisui is also a machlokes. (BTW, #8, Thanks, I now remember from back in my YD days, but it slipped my mind.) – YDK Aug 18 '10 at 02:27
  • So you are willing to say that the ER misunderstood the OT in order to farshtim them and Shalom al Yisrael. I am not convinced that this is what your Rosh Hayeshivah meant by meeting people on the right path. If you go with my understanding then everyone is on agreement on the usage of terms but there is disagreement in the psak. Your approach is the they agree but just do not know it. Hmmm... – Yahu Sep 01 '10 at 02:43
5

הרב יוסף דוב סולוביציק was נוהג to do ליפול על פניו for Tachnun even in a place that has no Sefer Torah. So accordingly (according to the "Rav") you would follow the normal procedure for sitting/leaning and covering your face.
[ועיי"ש בב"י בשם הרא"ש,ובט"ז סק"ה, ובכף החיים ס"ק מ בזה]

RCW
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4

Tachanun is only said where there is a Sefer Torah.(Based on a Pasuk in Sefer Yehoshua{7:6}). Reb Moshe(Igrot Moshe YD III:129.) says In Yerushalayim one is to lean by Tachanun even with no Sefer Torah. The Steipler Goan would lean in a room without a Sefer Torah, if there were Sefarim.In Mishneh Berurah(131:2) it says If you are in a place that has Sefarim Kedoshim there is a machlokes whether you say the Tachanun with a bowed head. Some are accustomed to bow.Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch says the Sefer Torah provides an environment for a Teffilah as serious as Tachanun.so I guess you according to some you would!? I will admit I have never seen this done ,so essential you say it without Nefilas Apayim.

Three Part Article From Jewish Press on this Question :

Q & A: Tachanun Without A Torah Scroll (Part I)

Q & A: Tachanun Without A Torah Scroll (Part II)

Q & A: Tachanun Without A Torah Scroll (Conclusion)

Frank
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SimchasTorah
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  • By Rabbi Sternbuch, did you mean Sefarim Kedoshim? – YDK Aug 17 '10 at 05:33
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    no i mean Reb Sternbuch its in the article – SimchasTorah Aug 17 '10 at 13:44
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    Where does Rabbi Sternbuch know it from? ;-) – Yahu Aug 17 '10 at 14:15
  • @yydl Tefillo Kehilchoso quotes the MB in OC 131 (2) [11] and says that the MB's conclusion is that you do not say the Psalm (6) when there is no Sefer Torah. He quotes the Shaar HaTziyun (9). I don't understand and have never seen tachanun stopped because of no Sefer Torah. Any ideas? – Avrohom Yitzchok Sep 04 '12 at 20:02
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    These links are dead. Can you update them or describe their content? – Yehuda W Feb 07 '18 at 22:11
  • I believe you mean to say that Tachnun is only said with Nefillas Apayim when there's a Seder Torah. Certainly, you say Tachnun without Nefillas Apayim though. – Eliyahu Jul 09 '19 at 20:05
  • @AvrohomYitzchok I looked up the Sefer Tefilla Kehilchaso and he explicitly says (quoting the Meforshim you named) that you do say Tachnun but without Nefillas Apayim. – Eliyahu Jul 09 '19 at 20:06
2

This seems to be a machlokes between the Magen Avraham and the Taz which affects how to learn the Rema (131:2)

When the Rema says that a yachid can say tachanun (w/ nefilas apaim) when the tzibur is davening (in the darkei moshe he references that "an iron partition can't separate"), does that mean that when the tzibur falls in front of the Torah in shul, he can connect to the tzibur even if he is in a different place without a Torah? (MA) Or does this mean that he and the tzibur has a direct connection to Hashem and you don't need a Torah to do Nefilas Apaim (only a yachid not at the time the tzibbur is davening)? (Taz)

The minhag is not to do nefilas apaim and I have never seen anyone try to be mechaven to the tzibur.

As far as standing or sitting, nefilas apaim (originally done outstretched - hishtachavia) is "lifnei Hashem" - in front of a Torah. So even according to those who say our nefila is done sitting, there's no reason to sit in your venue. This is also true for those who say the reason for the nefila is for a third type of Tefilla (sitting, standing and now nefila), if you aren't doing nefila it doesn't matter which type of position you repeat. Standing is just as good as sitting.

YDK
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  • Sitting is one level of Nefilas Apayim, covering the face is another. This is the reason for the Rema's Lashon of "kisui panim". Look in the Darchei Moshe 131, 3 you will see that there are different levels of Nefilas Apayim. http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14265&st=&pgnum=222 – Yahu Aug 17 '10 at 06:38
  • See my comment to Yahu above. – YDK Aug 17 '10 at 14:35
  • The Darchei Moshe first quotes the Agur in the name of the Mahari Molin that "Afilu Yachid shehu chutz libeis hakineses yachol lipol tahanun im haTzibur" and on that the Darchei Moshe himself clearly says "Vi'Nir'eh DiGam Linyan Kisui Panim Ka'amar" which clearly indicates that that there are various levels that N'filas Apayim could be referring to and one might have wished to say that the Mahari Molin was referring to n'filas apayim but without kisui panim. If Kisui Panim is all that N'filas Apayim is, then why say "DiGam L'inyan Kisui Panim Ka'amar"? – Yahu Aug 17 '10 at 20:58
  • Let's continue this above. – YDK Aug 17 '10 at 22:59
  • You got it! Here goes... – Yahu Aug 18 '10 at 01:39