Were the prophets and holy people who lived before Judah (Yehudah) also Jews?

Question

The word "Jew" originates from the name of Jacob's son, Judah. The term "Jew" was introduced many generations and decades after him. I wonder whether Adam, Noah, Lot, Abraham and Moses were all Jews?

See also: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8646/when-did-avraham-avinu-become-jewish, the answers thereon, and these two links from Menachem's comment there. (Also, note that Judah was Jacob's fourth son but had a special leadership role.) — Isaac Moses, Feb 24 '12 at 15:05
@SethJ, Similar misconceptions are in play, but I think these questions are distinct enough to keep as separate. — Isaac Moses, Feb 24 '12 at 19:16
After seven years, why has no one corrected the first sentence, which reads: 'The word "Jew" originates from the name of the eldest son of Jacob.' My comment: Judah most definitely was not "the eldest son of Jacob". — ninamag, May 08 '19 at 06:03

score 8 · Answer 1 · edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:41

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The term "Jew" is relatively recent. The Hebrew form of it ("Yehudi") first appears (I believe) in Megillas Esther and in Zechariah. Before that, Jews were referred to as "Ivrim" or "(B'nei) Yisrael" (The Children of Israel). (Thanks @IsaacMoses, for bringing up @Menachem's excellent links. I'd like to reemphasize that those should really be checked out, especially the Chabad.org one on the origin of the term "Jew".)

I'll use the word "Jew" hereinafter because it's convenient, but remember that I'm talking about the people, not the name.

Generally, Avraham (Abraham) is considered to be the first of what we now call Jews. We actually have an interesting discussion here on when he became so, and what made that happen.

Traditionally, we do not call Adam, Noah, or Lot Jews. Only from Avraham and down do we start to refer to people as Jewish.

That's not to say that Adam and Noah* weren't holy people, just that they didn't have that same special status that G-d gave to Avraham and his children. But don't worry about them, they've got their own unique places in Jewish history. (Adam, the first man, the archetype of humanity. Noah, the only worthwhile guy in the universe at the time.)

_{*Noah's relative holiness is disputed by the rabbinic commentators. Some say he was only considered righteous compared to the rest of his (really evil) generation, while others say he was indeed righteous by any standard. I have intentionally left out Lot, as Jewish tradition does not consider him to be much of a holy guy at all, as far as I know.)}

edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:41

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answered Feb 24 '12 at 15:15

HodofHod

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So are you telling that Avraham (Abraham) used to practice all the Jewish traditions the modern Jews nowadays do? This isn't a fact. – Maxood Feb 24 '12 at 15:51
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@Maxood Where did I say that? It is not true, neither then nor today, that a Jew needs to practice all the Jewish traditions in order to be a Jew. However, we do have a tradition that Avraham practiced many, if not all, of the mitzvos, see the question here – HodofHod Feb 24 '12 at 16:00
The matter of the fact is that he was a devout monotheist who worshipped one God, believed in sacrifice and lived all his life away from paganism. The Hebrew Bible has all of that facts. But he never prayed facing to Jerusalem, never celebrated Yom Kippur, or other Jewish practices! – Maxood Feb 24 '12 at 16:06
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@Maxood I don't understand. First, how do you know that he didn't face Jerusalem, etc.? Maybe he did all those things too! Second, so what if he didn't? He did what G-d wanted of him then. Jews today do what G-d wants from us now. We may do different things, but we are all still Jews. – HodofHod Feb 24 '12 at 16:11
Isn't that true that Jews are suppose to pray 3 times a day facing Jerusalem? If you claim Abraham to be the first Jew on the planet then why don't we see him praying the ways Jews do nowadays? After all, he was the first Jew as you claim! – Maxood Feb 24 '12 at 16:19
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@Maxood First, he may have indeed faced Jerusalem, you don't know that he didn't. Second, even if he didn't face Jerusalem, G-d may not have yet commanded the Jews to face Jerusalem at that point in time, and so it was not yet part of Judaism. Third, you are misunderstanding a fundamental principle of Judaism. A Jew does not have to do Jewish things to be Jewish. – HodofHod Feb 24 '12 at 16:25
You can never say "he may have indeed faced Jerusalem", because if he had done that then the Hebrew Bible must have mentioned about it. – Maxood Feb 24 '12 at 16:31
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@Maxood I beg to differ. There are many things that Avraham did that are not mentioned in the Bible, but are recorded in Jewish tradition. The Bible is not a book of history, and you cannot expect it to record every action that Avraham ever did. – HodofHod Feb 24 '12 at 16:34
let us continue this discussion in chat – HodofHod Feb 24 '12 at 16:35
The first man who is claimed to be a Jew by the Jews was not practicing Judaism in its entireity! How and what? What about Moses (may peace and blessings be upon him)? And what made him a devout Jew? Also why the term "Yehudi" is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible? – Maxood Feb 24 '12 at 16:36
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@Maxood and HodofHod, you are talking in circles because you are using different fundamental understandings. Maxood, Jewish tradition is rich with stories and traditions that do not appear in the written Torah. It is not the same thing, but compare our Midrashim to Islam's Israiliyat and our Talmud to Islam's Hadith. – Seth J Feb 24 '12 at 16:37
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@Maxood I will not continue this discussion here. Again, let us continue this discussion in chat – HodofHod Feb 24 '12 at 16:39
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Please, both of you, you are using one word to mean two different things. @Maxood you must look at some of the other questions on this subject on this site. See here: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/8646/5 here: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/9042/5 and here: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/q/8515/5 – Seth J Feb 24 '12 at 16:44
@HodofHod You are always welcome to chat as well! – Maxood Feb 24 '12 at 16:49
@HodofHod There is no question that neither Abraham nor anybody before King Solomon prayed towards Jerusalem! If anything they would have prayed towards Shilo. – avi Feb 25 '12 at 16:58
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@avi Personally, I doubt that they did, but asking why didn't do simply because there is no record of it, is not a good question. We have scanty information on most, if not all, of the people in the Torah, so asking why they never did because of a lack of evidence is foolish; maybe they did, maybe they didn't. That being said, you have a svara (Shilo) that Maxood did not. Though I believe Jerusalem's holiness was recognized even before the Beis Hamikdash was built there, so it's not entirely impossible (though unlikely) for Avraham to have faced there. – HodofHod Feb 25 '12 at 23:52
@Maxood Just because Avrohom didn't practice everything Jews practice today doesn't mean he wasn't part of the religion. Consider Passover. From a logical point of view would it make sense for him to celebrate it? NO, Passover celebrates an event that had yet to happen. (true, there are midroshim that say he did but medroshim stem from tradition, not logic) Judaism is a buildup, and avrohom was the foundation. – Almost Silent Feb 26 '12 at 08:19
@HodofHod re: "asking why didn't do simply because there is no record of it, is not a good question." If you think praying in a certain direction is vital to Jewish practice( it isn't by the way), then the fact that it's not recorded IS a reasonable reason to believe that it didn't happen, when other similarly vital things are recorded. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 09:36
@avi, I agree that it's not vital, but even if it were, you can't expect every vital Jewish practice to be recorded by each person in the Torah. The Torah is not a history book, but a book of teaching (m'lashon horaah). Even if the person is as great and as notable as Avraham, it doesn't mean that you have to teach every lesson by him. – HodofHod Feb 26 '12 at 13:14
@HodofHod IF you have reason to believe that somebody did not do something, like say keeping different sets of dishes for milk and meat, then the fact that it isn't recorded is a good added evidence that they did not. Especially if there is evidence that can hint that they did not do that action. Such as serving the two together to guests. – avi Feb 26 '12 at 14:34
@avi, Absolutely true. If you have a separate reason to believe that it did not occur. But even then, it can never be decisive enough to argue that he couldn't/didn't do . Unless one has a tradition that did/didn't happen, one can only state probabilities. – HodofHod Feb 26 '12 at 14:40
@avi and Maxood, This comment thread really should be permanently moved to chat. – HodofHod Feb 26 '12 at 14:43

score 1 · Answer 2 · answered Jun 07 '22 at 12:15

The term Jew originally referred to members of the tribe of Judah/יהודה. After the reign of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split in two. The northern part contained most of the tribes and was thus called the Kingdom of Israel. The southern part contained the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with descendants of David as king. This became known as the Kingdom of Judah. The citizens of this country were called יהודים, and their language was יהודית.

The Kingdom of Israel was exiled by the Assyrians, and more or less disappeared from history:

Until Adonoy banished Yisroel from His Presence, as He had spoken through all His servants, the prophets; and Yisroel went into exile from its land to Ashur until this day. (Kings II 17:23)

As a result, the remaining Jews were from the Kingdom of Judeah, and would be referred to as Jews in history, even if they were from a different tribe:

Now in Shushan the capital there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordokhay, the son of Ya᾽ir, the son of Shim῾i, the son of Qish, a Binyaminite; who had been exiled from Yerushalayim with the captivity which had been carried away into exile with Yekhonya king of Yehuda, whom Nevukhadneżżar the king of Bavel had carried away into exile.

Nowadays, Jews refers to the entire people of Israel, colloquially speaking. (Rabbinic sources still use the term Israel over Jew) The term generally includes Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all of Jacob's descendants.

Were the prophets and holy people who lived before Judah (Yehudah) also Jews?

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