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Converts born with a Jewish soul (but born to the "wrong" parents), or converts getting a Jewish soul upon conversion?

I've heard the idea that if somebody converts to Judaism then it means that they have felt Jewish, and the conversion is more of a confirmation. And it means that they have a Jewish soul, and were born to the wrong parents, in the sense of, given that there parents aren't Jewish, it wasn't clear that they had a Jewish soul. The conversion is a test that shows that they are Jewish, (so, i.e. their Jewish soul led them to that path).

But I recently heard another idea that upon conversion, God gives them a Jewish soul. I've never heard that one before.

Are there sources for the "born to the wrong parents" idea? (I'm sure there are, but which?).

And for the "given a Jewish soul upon conversion" idea that I just heard?

Harel13
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barlop
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    Could both be true? The sources do discuss that we have 2 souls, an earthy one and a Divine one. – Rabbi Kaii Jan 15 '24 at 12:12
  • @RabbiKaii that's two excluding the shabbat one that is just on Shabbat! Maybe what you speak of is an idea that Jews have an additional soul, beyond the animal soul, whereas non-jews just have the animal soul. (I once heard that Tanya has an idea something a bit like that). I wonder though if some sources speak simply of one soul, and Jews and Non-Jews having a different type of soul. (cntd) – barlop Jan 15 '24 at 12:50
  • @RabbiKaii (cntd) This website rejects Tanya and (also btw I think he rejects might reject the Zohar and kabbalah), and he makes some interesting points on the subject https://www.mesora.org/gentilesouls.html (rejecting distinctions between souls). – barlop Jan 15 '24 at 12:51
  • Do you only want answers from single-soul models? – Rabbi Kaii Jan 15 '24 at 12:52
  • @RabbiKaii no i'm fine with whatever model(various models!)! Whatever based on Jewish sources. Here's a related question https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/9371/do-gentiles-have-neshamot but it doesn't touch on the situation for converts. So if it is the case that Jews have two and gentiles one. Then is a convert born with two, or does he gain a second upon conversion. – barlop Jan 15 '24 at 12:54
  • Just to confuse things further, the Tanya doesn't necessarily say non Jews only have one Neshama, and Jews have 2, but rather there's something that needs activating in the Divine soul of a non-Jew, that Avraham activated permanently for his offspring. But ok noted, any explanation from sources would suffice. – Rabbi Kaii Jan 15 '24 at 12:57
  • @RabbiKaii The change by the convert is in regard to their physical body. Perception by the soul is filtered by the body it occupies. Regarding Non-Jewish soul in contrast to Jewish soul, this is referring to the soul of pre-Adamic humanoids, those proto-humans who existed prior to the creation of Adam HaRishon. They are categorically different from the descendants of Adam. Regarding Rabbi Moshe Ben-Chaim, my instinct is that anyone claiming a title of "Rabbi" who is not forthcoming about his educational background should be regarded with skepticism no matter how much they have published. – Yaacov Deane Jan 15 '24 at 18:52
  • @barlop The biggest problem you are presenting here is that "you have heard..." Most of what you present in this question are incorrectly quoted or understood ideas from people who clearly do not understand the sources that discuss this subject. Learn from reliable, traditional published Torah sources and your confusion will disappear. – Yaacov Deane Jan 15 '24 at 19:01
  • @YaacovDeane My question was asking re sources of things so it's OK in that context to say i've heard and ask re any source for it. You mention a particular rabbi, Moshe Ben Chaim. I think you are referring to a website I mentioned in comment and Moshe Ben Chaim is the author on it, so maybe you meant to address me not commenter Rabbi Kaii. The author of that website isn't asking people to trust him. He is just making a point based on logic and reason hence I just mentioned his website not his name.. – barlop Jan 15 '24 at 19:12
  • @YaacovDeane You are also playing with words a bit. You write "The change by the convert is in regard to their physical body.". You are clearly trying to say the convert is circumcised. Nobody is denying that but that's not the subject. You write "Regarding Non-Jewish soul in contrast to Jewish soul, this is referring to the soul of pre-Adamic humanoids" <-- no, the only person talking about pre adamic humanoids is you. – barlop Jan 15 '24 at 19:15
  • @YaacovDeane There are some discussions within Judaism about Jewish souls compared to non-jewish souls e.g. https://www.judaismsanswer.com/The%20Soul.htm "there seems to be a qualitative difference in the souls between a Jew and a non-Jew. This qualitative difference is one of how far the soul can rise." – barlop Jan 15 '24 at 19:16
  • @barlop I addressed each of you as I intended. What I commented to Kaii, was intended specifically for him, not you. Regarding the subject of Jewish souls as contrasted with non-Jewish souls, that is discussed in detail by the Ari z"l in Sefer HaGilgulim among other sources. So to, the effect of the physical body upon the perception of any given soul. Going through the process of halachic conversion alters the nature of the physical body, whether for a female or male Jewish convert. This touches on a subject discussed at length by the Lubavitcher Rebbe about what G-d "chooses" with a Jew. – Yaacov Deane Jan 16 '24 at 16:07
  • @barlop That concept pertains specifically to the Jewish body, not the soul. Like the Rebbe explains, there is no choice between the Jewish soul and the non-Jewish soul because they are categorically different, like apples and oranges. If you are interested in the subject, Rabbi Kaii would probably be helpful in directing you to some videos by Manis Friedman discussing it. – Yaacov Deane Jan 16 '24 at 16:11

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