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I've heard that a number of different opinions suggest that a king is not the ideal situation, but that the Torah gives us halachos of monarchy because that's what people often want. At the time that the Torah was given, there was no concept of a democratically elected leader (although a Jewish king should require popular support). Does anyone address whether this is preferable to a king nowadays and whether any of the halachos of monarchy apply to an elected leader?

Moses Supposes
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  • It says explicitly in Shmuel that Hashem resented people for asking for a King – Rabbi Kaii Nov 28 '23 at 14:25
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    Abravanel was a fan of the republican governments of his day, such as in Florence and Venice. Would that answer the first part of your question? – Joel K Nov 28 '23 at 14:26
  • @RabbiKaii wasn't a king needed for certain functions though? I wasn't sure if one was required to build the Beis Hamikdash? I thought according to some opinions it wasn't necessarily that they asked at all, but how/why they asked/what they wanted him for? – Moses Supposes Nov 28 '23 at 14:28
  • @JoelK certainly interesting, but those weren't Jewish states, so may be different? – Moses Supposes Nov 28 '23 at 14:29
  • See for yourself: https://www.sefaria.org/I_Samuel.8.1 – Rabbi Kaii Nov 28 '23 at 14:30
  • @MosesSupposes He's pretty sure monarchy is not the best form of government for anyone. https://www.sefaria.org.il/Abarbanel_on_Torah%2C_Deuteronomy.17.14?lang=bi – Joel K Nov 28 '23 at 14:32
  • @RabbiKaii I read the Metzudas Dovid as seeming to imply that the problem was that they wanted the king instead of Torah, not that wanting a king was necessarily a problem itself? – Moses Supposes Nov 28 '23 at 14:33
  • @MosesSupposes which Metzudat David? The pshat of the Navi sounds like it is saying that in general, wanting a King is a rejection and insult to Hashem (1:8:7). – Rabbi Kaii Nov 28 '23 at 14:38
  • @RabbiKaii On several of the pesukim, but I think ט is clearest – Moses Supposes Nov 28 '23 at 15:04
  • @RabbiKaii "למאס במשפט התורה ולבחור במשפט המלך" ? Also even in pshat, פסוק ה says כְּכׇל־הַגּוֹיִֽם implying that chukas hagoy was the motivation – Moses Supposes Nov 28 '23 at 15:10
  • @MosesSupposes thanks, I didn't see that. Do you think this proves that it is possible to understand Shmuel 8 as allowing for having a king as an ideal situation? – Rabbi Kaii Nov 28 '23 at 21:18
  • @RabbiKaii Just because it's bad to want a king, doesn't mean it's bad to have a king. There are many positive associations with kings, even non-Jewish ones (מלכותא דארעא כעין מלכותא דרקיעא וכו). Also, for most of history, monarchy was a powerful model for our relationship with Hashem. With the decline of monarchy, that ubiquitous analogy has sadly lost much of its potency. – shmosel Nov 28 '23 at 22:14
  • @RabbiKaii I think it doesn't prove anything one way or the other, which leaves it as a possible interpretation of the mitzvos of a king being that we should have one – Moses Supposes Nov 29 '23 at 09:00
  • @MosesSupposes shema mina – Rabbi Kaii Nov 29 '23 at 10:53

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