Scam baiting in Halacha

Question

Some people engage in scam baiting, which is intentionally wasting time of scammers so that said scammers aren't spending their time actually scamming real victims.

Is this allowed? It involves a lot of deception, and may be considered bittul zman. There will likely also be a Jewish take on how one should treat them even though they are a scammer.

Not sure what else could be related, but it would be interesting to see answers to whether scam baiting is allowed.

There also is likely a difference between a Jewish and non-Jewish scammer — Lo ani, Nov 26 '23 at 22:22
Why would you think preventing a thief from stealing from others would be prohibited? Lo Taamod al Dam Re'echa. — MDjava, Nov 27 '23 at 03:38
@Loani Would we treat the Jewish scammer better or worse? Why? That sounds far fetched. How does one tell if the scammer is Jewish or not? — Rabbi Kaii, Nov 27 '23 at 13:48
@RabbiKaii presumably better, because by a goy we don't need to worry about ve'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha (though that may not apply to Jewish scammers either, that would need to be proven). As for telling if a scammer is Jewish or not: if he's calling from Israel and speaking Hebrew, he's probably Jewish. If not, he's probably a goy — Lo ani, Nov 27 '23 at 16:42
It is forbidden to deceive anyone - Jew or Gentile - even if he doesn’t cause a financial loss (Chulin 94a) — User123, Nov 27 '23 at 21:07

score 4 · Answer 1 · answered Nov 27 '23 at 04:35

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It's permitted for tzaddikim to out-swindle swindlers.

שרי להו לצדיקייא לסגואי ברמאותא עם רמאי

Sefer haMidot - Emet #4

answered Nov 27 '23 at 04:35

Nissim Nanach

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Bava Basra 123a and M'gilla 13b: אמרה ליה ומי שרי לצדיקי לסגויי ברמיותא אמר לה אין עם נבר תתבר ועם עקש תתפל ("[Rachel] said to [Ya'akov], 'My father is a swindler, and you will not prevail against him.' [Ya'akov] said to her, 'I am his brother in deceit.' She said to him, 'But is it permitted for a righteous person to engage in deceit?' [Ya'akov] said to her, 'Yes. "With the pure you [shall] behave purely, and against the crooked you [shall] behave with cunning (II Sh'mu'el 22:27)."'") – Fred Nov 27 '23 at 07:49
Thanks, and thanks @Fred. Is one allowed to go out of one's way to do this? How much time should one spend on a scam-bait session? Accustoming oneself to deception is fraught with danger to one's personality and soul, so a little more detail would be welcome – Rabbi Kaii Nov 27 '23 at 12:23
@RabbiKaii Idk but I'd just focus on the be a tzaddik part. That is, do what is right per your devotions, hitboddedut etc. And that's not hard; Rabbi Nachman said, I can make you into guter Yidden, even complete tzaddikim. Just do what's right = tzaddik? Actually I would advise aim higher and be a Hasid, and say Na Nach Nachma Nachman with simple faith. – Nissim Nanach Nov 27 '23 at 19:19
@RabbiKaii I don't know if you are directing this question to me or not, but my point was not to justify scam-baiting specifically, but merely to source the general principle expressed in the answer that it is permitted to use dishonest means to thwart the scam of a crook who is wrongly using dishonest means against you. Of course, even in the rare circumstances when dishonesty is permitted, it should only be used as a last resort when there is no other recourse. – Fred Nov 27 '23 at 19:34
Nissim, thanks yes, I agree we should all aim to be chassidim :) @Fred thanks, that last sentence I feel would be an essential elaboration or at least something worth backing up with sources for this question and in general. Nice to see you are being active here again, I've always enjoyed your contributions – Rabbi Kaii Nov 27 '23 at 20:14
@RabbiKaii That's the sense one gets from Rashi and many other mefarshim on B'reishis 27:19 (cf. B'reishis Rabba 65:16 and Zohar Vayishlach 167b), as many of the mefarshim there note that Ya'akov was permitted to lie in that instance, and yet he nevertheless tried to construct a statement with an aspect of truth. || [Thanks, I stop by from time to time. Good to see you, too.] – Fred Nov 28 '23 at 02:27
@Fred I remember another condition of this kind of deception is that if one is in a generation (like Noach's) where everyone is deceptive, one should be honest even with deceivers, but when it's a one off, like Lavan etc. then it's ok. IIRC the reasoning was at least in part because as a one off, one is likely able to compartmentalise the deceptive skills, whereas in the former case one would indeed become accustomed and even swayed into deceiving. Therefore maybe it's ok to do this when a scammer calls, but to do it regularly wouldn't be mutar – Rabbi Kaii Nov 28 '23 at 09:30
This answer would be a great deal more valuable if it incorporated additional context about the intent and parameters of this statement and/or how it has been applied Halachically. – Isaac Moses Nov 28 '23 at 22:08
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@RabbiKaii I seem to recall something along those lines, as well, but I don't recall a source offhand. Although Sanhedrin 97a is also an interesting source that brings the story about Rav Tavus or Rav Tavyomi who travelled to a place called Kushta (meaning "Truth" in Aramaic) where the residents were scrupulous about honesty. Rav Tavus/Tavyomi was an especially honest person, and he settled in that place. One day, he told a lie for a legitimate reason, and nevertheless he suffered for this and was expelled from Kushta. – Fred Nov 29 '23 at 06:10
Isn't Lot another case, was he really offering his daughters, rather you must say, Ok here, my daughters and with you would be my greatest honour -- and then do a Simon et Lévi and slay them all by the sword 🗡️ – Nissim Nanach Nov 29 '23 at 09:23

Scam baiting in Halacha

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