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I wanted to know what the Halacha is of conversion therapy being necessary. In the Torah, the biblical prohibition is “Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence.” Leviticus 18:22, meaning the Torah level prohibition is on gay sex. However, the other part of this is “it is an abhorrence”, meaning it seems on top if it being immoral to do gay acts, being gay attracted may be a separate part of the prohibition (since something being abhorrent generally means something to avoid), does this mean that organizations like Hod are wrong in their opposition of conversion therapy,(I would imagine their view is closer to modern orthodoxy than haredi/hasidic)

Kirk
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    The act is forbidden. There is no prohibition of having an attraction just acting on it – Dude Oct 04 '23 at 19:52
  • Yes, but the halachic mandate here is on P’ru urvu, and I believe according to Hasidism the belief is that homosexuality isn’t inherent – Kirk Oct 04 '23 at 19:57
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    Im not sure what you mean. The prohibition is clearly against the act. There is no prohibition for feelings. – Dude Oct 04 '23 at 20:00
  • @Dude the POSITIVE mitzvah (commandment), is p’ru urvu, meaning someone with gay attraction could be violating that since they won’t be having sex and reproducing with a woman, my question is if conversion therapy is necessary or if gay people are exempt from p’ru urvu – Kirk Oct 04 '23 at 20:08
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    I believe according to Hasidism the belief is that homosexuality isn’t inherent That's not accurate – robev Oct 04 '23 at 20:20
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    Your question assumes conversion therapy works. Without documented evidence of its efficacy (and in fact, evidence shows it does more harm than good), there shouldn't be an obligation to go through it. I know some authorities disagree but I'm not sure if they feel like it's a good idea or an obligation. But I'm sure they only expressed that believe because they were led to think it actually does something. Rabbanim that deal with this issue know it's a waste of time, at best. – robev Oct 04 '23 at 20:21
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    You made a massive logical leap there claiming that the Torah's description of the action means anything but that. Using dishonest weights and measures isn't just abhorrent, it is God-awful abhorrent; is someone sinful and in need of conversion therapy if they think gee I could totally take this customer for a ride, and I could really use the money, but I won't do it? – Shalom Oct 04 '23 at 20:45
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    Now you're asking a different question -- how far must one go to fulfill the "yes-do" of pru urvu ... ask that separately! – Shalom Oct 04 '23 at 20:46
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    Fair enough, maybe I should have been clearer, but I still stand by some of my original question since I believed the Tanya brings down thinking lashon harah is issur if one doesn’t actively try to avoid thinking about it @Shalom – Kirk Oct 04 '23 at 20:49
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    It would be an interesting question whether conversion therapy would be mandatory, if it worked a sizable percentage of the time. But as it appears to be, from the literature that I have seen, that conversion therapy rarely works, I don't see how it could be mandatory. This doesn't mean that gay men are exempt from pru u'rvu. – conceptualinertia Oct 04 '23 at 21:31
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    @KirkBellard pru revu is not connected to this issur. It's a separate mitzvah all together and has nothing to do with attraction – Dude Oct 05 '23 at 03:59

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Peninei Halacha* (Simchat Habayit 4:13 onwards, and matches what I've learned since forever, e.g. see Rabbi David Gottlieb's "Alternative Lifestyles" lecture), explains that nobody should be criticised for saying homosexuality is innate, and also that we shouldn't assume that all cases are innate either - in fact it proves that social and moral climate are highly relevant to the discussion. It writes into halacha that the act is always forbidden in either case, and that heaven takes into account the norms of society in passing judgement (4:14). Also, in either case, the halacha is to avoid sexual thoughts.

He presents in his halachic work a lot of various, nuanced ideas about what might cause homosexuality that any level headed person should consider, but ultimately concludes that we don't truly know.

He explains that the only possibility of considering a homosexual in a negative way compared to any other sin, is if that person is being homosexual in a defiant way (4:15), just to anger God - which it level headedly acknowledges is very rare, but certainly possible. So that really does rule out any dabbling with the word "abhorrent" in the normative contexts you've brought in the question (a word which is generally referring to how this practice frustrates the continuation of the species, as well as makes it harder for people to join with their soul mates - male and female, a key Torah principle - and achieve true Torah intimacy). In fact, dehumanising homosexuals is nonexistent in Torah, and in these contexts would be considered as evil as dehumanising heterosexuals (4:17), and a breach of Ahavat Yisrael.

It doesn't explicitly mention conversion therapy, but it does encourage people to talk to their family and wise rabbonim who can guide them. It leaves the door open for simply coping, or if the person wants (and it can be life or death for some people), work towards whatever they can that helps them pursue the mitzvot of Pru urvu and onah in a healthy way. It does not permit in any case what the Torah forbids, and not out of any agenda against our beloved homosexual brethren, God forbid, but purely out of the same acknowledgement that all experiences, pleasures and pursuits are created and belong to Hashem, and all is forbidden unless He explicitly permits it, including sex before marriage, for example.

Of course, it is said that it is forbidden to get married and pursue these mitzvot if one is not going to be attracted to one's spouse no matter what, e.g. one is homosexual and the other heterosexual. But as we said, not everyone falls into this category so the subject of helping people discover and kindle heterosexual feelings, if that's what they want, should definitely not be taboo (not that that precludes being sensitive about it in any way).

This is realistic wisdom that acknowledges the complexities of life, the limitations of our knowledge, the fact that all belongs to Hashem, and is grounded in the honest pursuit of truth with the aim of making the world better for everyone. It takes as axiomatic the Torah as being the word of Hashem, and understandably therefore might be upsetting or offensive to anyone who does not hold that axiom, so I am sorry for any upset caused. Please bare in mind that we truly believe the Torah's advice and law are purely for the maximum benefit of not just society as a whole, but of each and every individual personally, all of whom are considered Hashem's children.

* very adjacent to Hasidism, as per your comment

Rabbi Kaii
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