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Mishnah in Gittin 74a:

מַתְנִי׳ ״הֲרֵי זֶה גִּיטִּךְ, עַל מְנָת שֶׁתִּתְּנִי לִי מָאתַיִם זוּז״ – הֲרֵי זוֹ מְגוֹרֶשֶׁת, וְתִתֵּן.

MISHNA: If a husband says to his wife: This is your bill of divorce on the condition that you will give me two hundred dinars, then she is divorced and must give two hundred dinars in order to fulfill the condition of the bill of divorce.

It seems that the most obvious interpretation of "הֲרֵי זוֹ מְגוֹרֶשֶׁת, וְתִתֵּן" is that

  1. she is immediately divorced and
  2. has a debt of 200 dinars.

Gemorah does not entertain this interpretation, instead sticking closer to the literal understanding of the husband's words "עַל מְנָת": divorce takes effect only when she pays (retroactively or not, R'Huna vs R'Yehuda).

Mishnah in Gittin 75b:

״הֲרֵי זֶה גִּיטִּיךְ עַל מְנָת שֶׁתְּשַׁמְּשִׁי אֶת אַבָּא״

MISHNA: If a husband says to his wife: This is your bill of divorce on the condition that you will serve my father,

there is no discussion of the duration of the service, so, presumably, until father's death.

Questions:

  1. Why is my interpretation of Mishnah 74a wrong? (am I missing something obvious?)
  2. 200 dinars is the standard ketubah, so it's the annual subsistence - not a trivial amount. How does the woman survive while she comes up with the money? She is not supported by her husband anymore (even if she were, if she is divorced retroactively as per R'Huna, she has to return the support). The same question for Mishnah 75b: how does she survive while serving the father (for an open-ended term)? In other words, to put it bluntly: how is this condition not a trivial way to get out of paying ketubah?
sds
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  • Doesn't "on condition" imply it's at her discretion? Why would his condition obligate her? And why does it matter where she would get the money? – shmosel Jul 31 '23 at 22:50
  • @shmosel: "Why would his condition obligate her": wdym?! what's her alternative?! She has been thrown out and she cannot remarry without a get. It was hard to survive alone in those times, especially as a woman. – sds Jul 31 '23 at 23:38
  • @shmosel: "why does it matter where she would get the money": legally, it doesn't. nevertheless, I am curious how she was expected to get out of such a predicament. – sds Jul 31 '23 at 23:39
  • The Talmud deals in the principles of the cases. The details of how the wife manages are not relevant to the discussion. It might fall under the laws of tzedakah, but not geirushin. – N.T. Jul 31 '23 at 23:47
  • I don't understand your question. If your point is that she's effectively obligated because of some hypothetical circumstance you've placed her in, then... sure, I guess? But the mishna is talking about a legal document, and handing someone a conditional contract doesn't legally obligate them to fulfill the condition. – shmosel Jul 31 '23 at 23:47
  • I believe the Gemara there has an important discussion of the source and rules for t'nai. That should answer your main question. – N.T. Jul 31 '23 at 23:49
  • @N.T.: The Talmud deals with many different things. E.g., how is this condition not a trivial way to get out of paying ketubah? – sds Jul 31 '23 at 23:52
  • How is the condition relevant? He could just as easily tell her "I'm not divorcing you until you pay me 200 dinars." The conditional divorce only cedes some control to her, if anything. – shmosel Jul 31 '23 at 23:55
  • As for the general question of how the ketubah can be effective against a recalcitrant husband, that's not what it was meant for. It's designed to protect the woman who wants to stay married from being divorced on a whim. – shmosel Aug 01 '23 at 00:17
  • I don't see how this could create a debt on her. He has no power to make her owe him money, only she can do that. All he can do is make the get conditional. – MichoelR Aug 01 '23 at 12:19
  • "how is this condition not a trivial way to get out of paying ketubah?" She isn't divorced yet, he has given her a choice. She can choose to ignore it and stay married to him and he owes her the regular ketubah obligations. - If he is obligated to divorce her for one of several reasons, the court would force him to give a get without any conditions. – MichoelR Aug 01 '23 at 12:20

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