1

Question: Why are some consequences (such as punishments, penalties) in Torah Law permanent, with no appeal or way to alleviate? I am looking for a general covering this topic ideally using an answer that case studies the point that once a wife has cheated on her husband they are no longer allowed to remain married ever again.

Background: What is the concept of forgiveness as it relates to relationships between people in Judaism? Are there forgiven and unforgivable sins? Forgiveness means forgetting any hurt or feeling of revenge, does it depend on whether the person regrets it or does it not depend on it? Does forgiving mean having previous relationships again?

Observing the Torah this of forgiveness is a very strange concept for me but it seems to exist in the Jewish core, the common people and here I include myself see the Torah as a set of laws and punishments, with no scope for the law to punish an interval of repentance or forgiveness, even the concept of teshuvah that I've done here still has many doubts. It is said that God forgives everything, even the most vile sinner but apparently men have sins that cannot be forgiven such as adultery on the part of the wife since adultery on the part of the husband towards his wife is not recognized, he has to separate from her.

So how is this structured in Judaism? I want to hear the whole story if that segmentation exists.

There are similar questions already asked on this site that I have already seen but not with doubts like mine, so do your best to offer an adequate answer to each of the points in doubt, you don't need to answer all of them, you can answer all or just one

Rabbi Kaii
  • 9,499
  • 3
  • 10
  • 50
Thales
  • 557
  • 1
  • 3
  • 8
  • Similar : https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/87837/when-can-repentance-be-considered-complete – Maurice Mizrahi May 16 '23 at 16:56
  • Court is one thing and the personal mistakes I am referring to are another. If there has been a murder, it is clear that the victim will not be able to forgive the killer even if he repents. What Jewish sin is brought to court today? There is no such court, so forgiveness remains, so what? Is there forgiveness for any sin? – Thales May 16 '23 at 17:53
  • Forgiveness and restitution are separate things. There are some sins that cannot be "fixed", but forgiveness is always possible. Forgiveness can come in two ways, either the victim can forgive on their own, which means completely letting go of any grudge of bad feelings, or the aggressor can apologise and try to ignite the compassionate forgiveness of the victim. There are some rules that if an aggressor sincerely tries a certain number of times and the victim refuses to forgive, they can be considered as forgiven in halacha. Is that the sort of thing you are asking about? – Rabbi Kaii May 16 '23 at 18:06
  • Possible duplicate: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/87899/forgiveness-in-judaism?rq=1 – Rabbi Kaii May 16 '23 at 18:07
  • I'm basically trying to understand the concept of forgiveness in light of the Torah which doesn't seem to deal much with this possibility, what we see at face value is laws and punishments, with no scope for forgiveness or anything like that, although forgiveness is a very discussed concept in Judaism and by extension in Christianity even more so. For example, there is no forgiveness for adultery in Judaism I presume, in the sense of not destroying the marriage bond, how is that possible? What prevents? – Thales May 16 '23 at 18:10
  • @Thales sorry I misread your first sentence, you are asking about (legitimate ways to) getting out of punishment (which you are calling "forgiveness"), especially penalties imposed upon relationships between people by the Torah. Is that correct? You are asking what is the reason there are some punishments/penalties that are permanent with no way to appeal or fix? – Rabbi Kaii May 16 '23 at 18:34
  • That's right. Did the concept of forgiveness only come to predominate in Jewish life with the lack of judicial institutions like the Sanhedrin, or did it exist before that? And in what situations was it applied and not applied? – Thales May 16 '23 at 18:48
  • The current concept of forgiveness in the popular environment is for minor faults or those considered minor such as personal offense, intrigue, gossip, bad behavior in the workplace, etc. But what about big flaws like theft, adultery. Can we say that if the person has to return the stolen object or pay the value of such object to be forgiven or redeemed? And in the case of adultery, why is forgiveness and maintenance of the marital bond not possible even though there may be repentance on one side and a desire for forgiveness on the other and, above all, an interest in remaining married? – Thales May 16 '23 at 18:54
  • there are a few concepts that you seem to be conflating: obtaining forgiveness from a person you harmed, obtaining forgiveness from G-d (not being punished for the sin), and undoing all effects of the sin. These are not the same. – Esther May 16 '23 at 20:37
  • In the case of adultery, a woman can never go back to being with one man if she was with another afterwards. Doesn't matter if she was divorced and then wants to remarry her first husband, or if it was adultery. Regardless of forgiveness, what is done is done, even if she gets forgiveness from both her husband and G-d. – Esther May 16 '23 at 20:40
  • There is a concept of "What is crooked will not be able to be straightened" (Ecclesiastes 1:15), some things can not be undone. – Esther May 16 '23 at 20:42
  • Hosea had relations with an adulterous wife, symbolizing God in relation to Israel with other gods. So what would such a closed case look like for a reconciliation? Israel's affair with other gods was not irremediable or could not be straightened out. – Thales May 16 '23 at 21:12
  • @Thales based on your above comments, I've edited the question to make it clearer. I hope you accept – Rabbi Kaii May 17 '23 at 15:13
  • @RabbiKaii No problem, it got better anyway – Thales May 17 '23 at 15:45
  • 1
    Not sure what is being asked here. The "Background", in particular, needs to be reworded. It's unclear what you are trying to express. But if you are trying to understand the Torah viewpoint concerning an adulterous wife, as contrasted to a wife only suspected of adultery, the place to look is Hoshea the Prophet. He understood that the Jewish people are compared to G-d's bride (like at the giving of the Torah) & asked about your questions. G-d told him to go & marry a working prostitute and raise a family with her. See chapter 14 regarding the subject of forgiveness. – Yaacov Deane May 17 '23 at 17:47
  • @YaacovDeane What I asked if it has been unforgivably lost, of course the relationship between people and not in relation to God. Did I mention adultery as a point because it is in itself irremediable? I also questioned whether forgiveness is only in the sphere of not plotting revenge or does it indicate a return to living together as before? – Thales May 17 '23 at 18:52

2 Answers2

2

It seems you are conflating a few different ideas. There is obtaining forgiveness from G-d (not being punished for the sin), forgiveness from the person you harmed, and there is undoing all effects of the sin.

The first can be done with sincere teshuva. If one sincerely regrets the sin and resolves himself not to do it again, possibly with extra steps depending on the sin, etc, one can obtain forgiveness from G-d for even the worst sins. This means that on Rosh Hashana, or when one goes up to heaven, or any other time one is being judged for his sins, this one isn't counted as a sin, and one isn't punished for it. Note that, if the sin harmed another person, one must first obtain their forgiveness before G-d will consider forgiving your sin.

The second can be done by sincerely asking the person you harmed for forgiveness. There are provisions for if the person has already died, in which case one may have to go to their grave with ten men to ask for forgiveness, or if the person won't grant forgiveness after being sincerely asked some number of times. After this, the sin is forgiven by the person, and is eligible to be forgiven by G-d.

Even if a sin is completely forgiven, it can have some effects that can't be undone, regardless how much one regrets the act. This is the concept of "what is crooked will not be able to be straightened" (Ecclesiastes 1:15). If one has a child out of wedlock, the child will not be un-born just because he did teshuva. If one's sin has any lasting effects, they may not ever be able to be undone.

In the case you mention, a woman can never go back to being with one man if she was ever with another man afterwards. This includes if she divorced her first husband, and then the second one died/divorced her/etc - she cannot get remarried to her first husband. Obtaining forgiveness from her husband and doing teshuva does not undo the fact that she was with another man. Not everything can be undone.

Esther
  • 647
  • 4
  • 10
  • What if she was divorced from her first husband, then had relations with a second man but did not marry him, and now wants to go back to her original husband? – Joel K May 17 '23 at 04:03
  • @JoelK Good question. Saul gave his daughter Michal to David and then she gave it to Paltiel, did David want her back even though he implies that there was no relationship but there was no marriage? – Thales May 17 '23 at 15:46
  • @JoelK Then indeed she's permitted to her original husband (Shulchan Aruch, Even Haezer 10:1). – Meir May 18 '23 at 16:15
  • @Meir In which case the final paragraph of this answer is not very precise – Joel K May 18 '23 at 17:12
  • @JoelK you are right, I will be editing it once I find some information I'm looking for – Esther May 18 '23 at 17:27
0

Laws are designed to ecnourage good behavior. When a woman knows her sin will not be forgiven, she will be less likely to cheat.

Similarly, the Mamzer punishment is designed to deter parents from intending to bear a child through an illegal relationship.

Sins between man and God are also not entirely forgivable, as implied in the Talmed whenever quoting the verse "that which is bent cannot be made straight."

Much of the lore about repentance is designed to create visualizations which help keep a person's behavior optimal, before or after sin.

Dr16
  • 57
  • 1