Maintaining A Convert's Privacy

Question

Bava Metzia 58b one is not allowed to remind a convert that they converted. However, they are given the name "Ben Avraham Avinu/bat Sarah Immenu" which makes them stand out and is a constant reminder as well as revelation to everyone who hears it that they are a convert.

What am I missing here? Would it be possible to leave out the Avinu/Immenu either officially or unofficially, such as when called to Torah or when they tell people casually? Could they lie about their name altogether as even "Ben Avraham/Bat Sarah" might raise suspicions, especially if they look a little/lot different?

Would they be allowed to leave it out of documents like a ketuba?

There are different takes on this. For example, the Tosefta in Gittin 6:4 writes that Jews overseas would have different names, and hence it is acceptable to have another name than ben Avraham etc... — Shmuel, Mar 25 '23 at 21:08
Although it is from a source that I would not use myself, since it is Conservative Judaism, see this article: https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/20052010/ConvertsNameLeff.pdf — Shmuel, Mar 25 '23 at 21:09
In practice, the title Avinu and Imeinu isn't used. If the ger gets an aliyah, they could just be the child of someone called Avraham. — N.T., Mar 26 '23 at 03:25
And I think the problem with reminding is if it is done in a derogatory way, to imply they are less than. Treating their conversion as something to be ashamed of and never mentioned is actually counterproductive. — N.T., Mar 26 '23 at 03:26
@N.T. Yeah. People just say ben Avraham. In mishebeirachs, they just say bas Sarah. — MichoelR, Mar 26 '23 at 03:30
Semi-related, I've often wondered if context/intent matters. Pshat in that Gemara seems to be that you are mocking the person. But what if you meant it as praise? Like if a ger/baal teshuvah was making a siyum hashas and you said to him "wow, I can't believe X years ago you'd never even heard of gemara. You've come so far you're an inspiration to me" would that violate the halakhah? (I realize it might still be insensitive or offensive, depending on the person and your relationship, but is it within the framework of onaat devarim?) — Avraham, Apr 11 '23 at 11:38
@Avraham very good point. I don't know, it's very sticky. The ideal would be a society that fully embraces gerim and baalei teshuva and there were absolutely no issues at all, however many societies carry a stigma, or shidduch problems, and otherwise treat these people differently so much so they are actually advised to hide their own past, or they come to the conclusion they should do so themselves, in which case I think it might be very emotionally distressing for them to be "outed". — Rabbi Kaii, Apr 11 '23 at 12:07
All good points, but I'm more asking one-on-one; because embarrassing someone in public carries its own issues. Whereas here the issur seems to be that the speech itself, regardless of effect, is treated as hurtful. And I'm wondering if it's the per se reminder of a "shameful" past or if the insulting tone/intent is a necessary element. — Avraham, Apr 11 '23 at 12:56
I have been a gabbai for many many years in many places and I can tell you that I have never seen a ger get an aliya, misheberach, etc. using "Avinu" or "Imeinu." Just just "Ploni ben Avraham." I also don't think it's usually written on ketuvot, but I'm less sure. What's your source that those words are part of the name? — Avraham, Apr 11 '23 at 13:03
@Avraham I've seen it written on Ketuvot. But I am also not an expert and therefore I am just asking, not declaring it. — Rabbi Kaii, Apr 11 '23 at 13:09

score 3 · Accepted Answer · answered Mar 26 '23 at 11:30

3

Bava Metzia is talking about ona'at devarim -- verbal abuse. Ona'a from the same root as koneh (I think that's R' Hirsch) -- I want to dominate that person and make them feel "less than." So I'll say -- how dare you speak up? You used to worship idols! or you should be thanking us to be allowed in here; your grandparents were Nazis or why should we allow someone into our yeshiva who used to do every possible noxious thing?

There's also the crucial, crucial distinction between "what's necessary to be made known to everyone, all the time" and mental convolutions of trying to hide a basic truth. A convert doesn't have to walk around in shul with a giant neon sign saying "HI I'M JOE I'M A CONVERT" ... but if someone astute picks up that they're a Jew-by-choice, that's fine. The point is not to exploit that to hurt them.

answered Mar 26 '23 at 11:30

Shalom

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Shalom this is exactly my understanding of this nekudah as well, but what is our source? – יהושע ק Mar 26 '23 at 11:55
@יהושעק Reading that Gemara in context! – Shalom Mar 26 '23 at 20:28
@Shalom so the gemara is just giving a practical example of ona'at devarim, and there's no specific halacha for converts? – Rabbi Kaii Sep 03 '23 at 14:47
@RabbiKaii precisely. Mishna says just as you can't abuse someone in business, you can't abuse them verbally. It then gives three examples of verbally exploiting someone's vulnerability -- a.) they need to sell something (so you get them to jump through hoops) b.) they are born-Jewish but have a spotted past c.) they weren't born Jewish. Now there is an additional prohibition on verbal abuse of a convert -- in cases where it is verbal abuse! "Joe is a Jew by choice" is not verbally abusive. "Shut your pagan mouth, Joe" is abusive. – Shalom Sep 04 '23 at 10:12
@Shalom Thanks so much. I do know of converts who absolutely have a trauma reaction by the idea someone might find out. I therefore will use that as my own personal guide to what counts as "hurting someone with words", and encourage others to consider it. Your source and explanation is perfectly good, +1 accepted. How amazing Torah is! It really proves how someone who says "I can be good without Torah" really has no idea what they are talking about. Being good is a lifetime's study, and the Torah puts us all to shame with its expectations of morality! – Rabbi Kaii Sep 04 '23 at 10:16
Honestly, the case where privacy about conversion comes up the most is someone who is raised Jewish, but their mother wasn't halachically Jewish at the time they were born. Or maybe someone who converted as a toddler when their parents also did so -- such people are sociologically "BT", and most folks don't need to know. Or there was IVF with a non-Jewish donor egg. Whoever's reading the Kesubah out loud may do so ... creatively. For adoptions, people used to pretend they were biological children, but thankfully that's not today's trend. – Shalom Sep 04 '23 at 19:12
The "classical convert" -- someone raised with a different faith, or no faith, who then decided to accept Judaism ... could they try and fabricate a born-Jewish story and consider anything else a horribly offensive and private thing? Yes, but ... I don't think living a lie is very healthy. (That doesn't mean everyone needs to know all the details, though.) (Complex question -- someone with blue eyes walks up to you and says if you tell me my eyes are blue I will have a psychotic breakdown; what color are my eyes? Is that you hurting them or them hurting themselves?) – Shalom Sep 04 '23 at 19:15
Rabbi Willig shlit'a had the case of Hassidic parents whose kid went -- gasp! -- Modern Orthodox. And was about to marry someone Modern Orthodox. The parents screamed that marrying such a person would cause them shame and agony. Rabbi Willig replied that the marriage would just force them to realize what's already changed about their kid ... and if the parents want to have a heart attack because of the wedding, well ... that's them making their own agony -- they can't pin it on their kid. – Shalom Sep 04 '23 at 19:17

Maintaining A Convert's Privacy

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