0

How is the relationship between people who had open experiences with God or with his manifestations in relation to those who had nothing? Will God treat them differently when it comes to their behavior here on Earth? Will those who have had no direct or close contact with the divine presence have any compensation for moral failings compared to those they have? The Rambam says that only those who kept the seven laws of Noah will have the right to the world to come out of the conviction that it was a divine ordinance through Moses who wrote these commandments, how does he expect this to happen? The faith? Isn't this a foreign concept to Judaism being closer to Christianity? Does Judaism not stand on solid foundations of events? I consider Christian-type faith something very abstract and even dangerous if it involves concepts like salvation, wouldn't that be playing with people's destiny? Are those isolated people without any contact or concepts of Judaism, Noahide laws but somehow culturally observed all the noetic laws, are they lost by only considering them basic moral laws? Does Judaism somehow support that Pauline concept that those ignorant of the truths of Scripture will not be condemned?

In short. What is necessary for humanity to reach the state of consciousness that these universal moral commandments are the result of a will of a certain God since there are several "gods" out there. And what will happen to the people who observed these commandments in their own cultural consciences spiritually speaking?

You can if you want to answer one or all of the questions with a question mark if you so wish, you are free to answer what you think is best to clarify.

Thales
  • 557
  • 1
  • 3
  • 8
  • 1
    I count 10 question marks not including the one in the title. Do you think you can boil it down to 1 or 2? After that, make a little section explaining why you are asking and it will be a lot clearer, thanks! – Rabbi Kaii Mar 20 '23 at 14:33
  • I accept any answer to this bunch of questions, I ask a lot of questions in a topic just because if I split it, it could end up falling into an already answered question and end up not accepting any more answers. Answer 1 or 2 which you consider best to answer. – Thales Mar 20 '23 at 14:39
  • I strongly recommend trying to boil your question down to a single question, which is stated clearly at the beginning of the post. Then make a gap, and write "here is what is behind this question:" and then write the rest. – Rabbi Kaii Mar 20 '23 at 14:42
  • I think I'll edit the question by adding the central doubt of these 10 questions at the end. I just need time to better reflect on what I'm going to question in the face of all this – Thales Mar 20 '23 at 14:46
  • @RabbiKaii I made an edit by formulating two core questions of the doubts I outlined at the beginning. It is better now? – Thales Mar 20 '23 at 15:21
  • For me yes, it's clearer now thanks – Rabbi Kaii Mar 20 '23 at 15:31

1 Answers1

1

First the Rambam is in Hilchos Melachim 8:14 (or 8:11 according to a different edition?).

Kesef Mishna there says that the need to do so because Moses commanded it, is the Rambam's own logic.

To explain the logic (see בני ולחם יהודה for the necessity due to other Gemaras). I would simply say that someone who does something because it is logical is not accomplishing anything other then what he needs to do because it's better for humanity or himself etc...

Someone who does something because he was commanded by Hashem understands that these commandments form a connection and relationship which is what Olam Haba is. Sadly someone who does not form that connection simply doesn't have it.

It would be fascinating to know whether one who logically realizes Hashem exists, and realizes that he wants us to do these things, or because he has a tradition from Noah (and not Moses) would he have Olam Haba. I can imagine the answer is yes, and the Rambam writes about Moses for other reasons.

See Michtav Meliyahu (חלק א׳) about why rewards are given and why it is ultimately fair. For example, someone who does something for physical reasons, why should he receive a spiritual reward? He in fact might find the spiritual reward painful, whereas a physical reward in this world much more gratifying. This is because Olam Haba requires refinement of soul. He also writes there that someone who grew up with a warped sense of good/evil is judged on their level not an absolute standard (נקודת הבחירה).

Faith should be a separate question; however, in regard to this specifically, one should not serve Hashem out of reward, but rather for his sake. (Pirkei Avos 1:3) and so faith doesn't technically apply to your question I don't think.

msj121
  • 979
  • 1
  • 9
  • Is it not a disadvantage for certain people of biblical times to have experienced direct or almost direct communication with the divine presence than for those who never had it? Doesn't this impact on the idea of the Rambam that only those who observed the seven Noahide laws are part of the world to come, out of the conviction that it was God who formulated and destined the Gentiles? In other words, is there something for those who observed these commandments just by logical reasoning? Or does this Rambam idea have a catch or is it not quite like black and white? – Thales Mar 20 '23 at 15:26
  • @Thales The נקודת הבחירה point is the most relevant to the question. Hashem takes circumstance into account. How that works is a secret though, but we know that Hashem is good and the reward is perfect. The entire point of having free will is so that He can have us, not angels/robots. Therefore the less "advantage" someone has in serving Him, the more of themselves is going into the service. Does that make sense? This answer also has a relevant point that goes well with what msj121 wrote: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/131816/31534 i.e. physical being rewarded with physical etc.] – Rabbi Kaii Mar 20 '23 at 15:30
  • 1
    @Thales To exeperience communication and similarly (to less extent) someone who knows G-d commands something and DOESN'T listen it is much more serious. In fact the Jewish people at Har Sinai asked Moses to intercede instead of direct communcation. – msj121 Mar 20 '23 at 15:31
  • @Thales In regard to the idea that a non-Jew's reward, nothing is black and white in regard to Hashem and how he Judges imo. It would be interesting to consider that Christianity/Islam believe in the Torah, but they made a new religion. Perhaps they get credit for the 7 laws (if they are followed), in regard to the new religion perhaps Hashem will show kindness to those who followed it (if they "deserve" kindness - ie: they are kind and good) and be spared punishment for that aspect? Just an idea. – msj121 Mar 20 '23 at 15:35
  • The whole issue involves the concept of recognizing these laws as arising from the determination of a deity. Isn't this a little complicated to establish criteria for this to be achieved? – Thales Mar 20 '23 at 15:52
  • @Thales I think this is standard for any religion, why is that complicated? Do you mean for someone without any knowledge of religion? – msj121 Mar 20 '23 at 16:31
  • @msj121 How is someone going to have a state of consciousness that what they are doing is by divine will? Blind faith? God went to Abraham proposing a pact to him, would this be the stage that Rambam advocates for those who will go to the world to come for having obeyed the commandments by divine precept? The isolated aborigines didn't have the same opportunity, what about this duality? – Thales Mar 20 '23 at 16:38
  • @Thales The requirement is that you acknowledge or know your acts are divine commandments, but it is debated whether you need that state of consciousness at all during the act and what level one needs in general. Even aboriginees did believe in a creator. I personally think it logical that not knowing anything means they will be judged did they follow what they knew was right, did they commit to a spiritual life etc... If they still can't have the world to come, Judaism does have reincarnation (imo), it's illogical that someone will be created for no chance/purpose and will be given 2nd chance – msj121 Mar 20 '23 at 17:04
  • Similarly children who die too young, I have heard that they fulfilled their purpose in the world by being here as someone to receive love and cause joy. This was the one thing they were missing to perfect themselves. Perhaps people without knowledge have a similar role, or move their way up the ladder. – msj121 Mar 20 '23 at 17:05
  • @msj121 That's what I said, maybe the Pauline logic referring to this group of people who do the will of God without consciously doing it cannot have a different destiny or have no reward in the afterlife from those who went through spiritual experiences in the physical world like biblical individuals. That's why I don't understand Rambam's radical position on this issue. – Thales Mar 20 '23 at 18:51
  • @msj121 But the Rambam is saying that in addition to observing these basic moral commandments, you have to be obeying them knowing that a specific creator ordered them to be fulfilled, so the aborigines somehow have to know that there is a YHWH and not his primitive god, understand? That's what I questioned, it's not accepting that it was divinely inspired only, it has to be the biblical God, according to the Rambam. – Thales Mar 20 '23 at 19:00
  • @Thales Ah, I see. So the Rambam says two extremes, 1). To do it because the Torah says so; 2). To not do it out of pure logic. The question is what about someone in the middle... where are they. This will be a place of argument imo. It could be argued: that ppl like aborignees COULD get Olam Haba but it is not definite and perhaps their situation allows for it; whereas, the Rambam is telling you how to definitely attain Olam Haba (ie: the last clause is the important one). Or perhaps the first clause is the necessary one, and you must believe due to the Torah. I'd need to research this. – msj121 Mar 21 '23 at 02:31
  • @Thales, perhaps a new question specifically, "do non-Jews need to do good deeds specifically with belief in Moses/Torah to get Olam Haba, according to the Rambam Hilchos Melachim 8:11. What if they have no access to that information?" The legal statement imo leaves an interesting place for debate. – msj121 Mar 21 '23 at 02:34
  • Exactly, this problem I think the Rambam did not pay attention to, how will people isolated from accessing the Scriptures about Moses or God be able to have access to this world to come if they had no chance of exercising this awareness? And there is that question that Judaism is not proselytizing, so how to establish a protocol for these people? Then I brought the hypothesis that these people, due to ignorance, have access to some afterlife reward. – Thales Mar 21 '23 at 10:43
  • @Thales Keep in mind the Rambam summarized all of Torah law in the most concise rules. Likely these gray cases are intentionally left out so that a qualified Rabbi can discern between all the rules the True law to specific cases that don't match exactly. – msj121 Mar 21 '23 at 16:11
  • Or else the world to come is not something absolute, which separates the good from the bad but rewards those who have reached a high spiritual level while those who have not but lived an honest life have something beyond nothing or are classified as a kind of impious. Otherwise, it is difficult to establish a sense of justice in this matter, since certain people had access to this reality while others were immersed in ignorance. – Thales Mar 21 '23 at 19:07
  • And there's the issue that Judaism holds that non-Jews don't need a religion to save themselves, does that involve establishing a theological awareness that certain laws were given by God? Does Judaism Require Gentiles to Believe in God? I looked for this question right here on the site and the answers were diverse, some saying yes others saying no. – Thales Mar 21 '23 at 19:10
  • @Thales much of Judaism involves debates in these grey areas. Yes someone as a non-Jew should do as much which includes not starting or joining a false religion. But it is logical to presume that if one did join a false religion and didnt have access or logic to know its false, this wouldnt be held against them. No I dont think pure action alone is judged, context, difficulty etc... are taken into account. Perhaps those who didnt know better are gven another chance (reincarnation) to perfect this one flaw etc... Many Jews need reincarnation to fix flaws imo (a debated topic) – msj121 Mar 22 '23 at 01:52
  • Reincarnation would be a point but let's face it, it is not something absolute in Judaism and if you look in depth this was introduced into Judaism from the outside in, primitive Judaism understood that once you died it was over, the Sadducees were like that. – Thales Mar 22 '23 at 14:22
  • @Thales We disagree about reincarnation, but the idea still stands without it. The idea is you are judged by your ability. Some had no ability or minimal and will be judged in that framework. The Rambam I don't think is dismissing that imo. The dismissal is on people who do have access and choose not to believe or perhaps inquire. Ignorance imo is not an excuse if it was within your ability or expectation to look into. – msj121 Mar 22 '23 at 22:53