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As I am approaching the completion of gerus, HaShem has brought me a new wave of challengers. Old friends who were drawn to Christianity have began contacting me. A conversation was initiated about a point or two about the Tanakh, which one grossly misunderstood. So I begin spending time responding to some of his claims using Torah sources.

I remember an injunction in the Torah that Jews should know how to respond to heretics, which Christians admittedly are not. As far as I know, heretics have to be Jewish. Christians are mainly gentile idolaters according to Rabbi Moshe Weiner's Divine Code.

I can win these arguments but I fear that there is a prohibition to speak to them. I read from an earlier post here that poskim ruled that we are not allowed to teach idolaters Torah. What are your thoughts on what I should do? Should I ignore them and move on with my life or get the last word in and eliminate all accusatory doubts.

Kenny Xiong
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    You are remembering the Mishna in Pirkei Avot (2:14) "Rabbi Elazar would say: [...] Know what to answer a heretic [...]" On teaching Torah to Christians, see here and here on MY. My personal experience is that very few challengers of Torah really want to learn and are open to changing their beliefs. In most cases, one is simply wasting time by responding beyond the basics. So, even if permitted, there is likely more to be gained by you using that time to learn more Torah – mbloch Mar 25 '21 at 07:12
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    By the way, the source of our faith is not the internal consistency of Tanakh (since there are indeed apparent inconsistencies) but rather the uninterrupted transmission from Mount Sinai. So fighting over details in Tanakh doesn't really challenge anything – mbloch Mar 25 '21 at 07:15
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    The fact of the matter is most if not all of these people contacting you don't actually seek truth. It's better not to engage simply because you'll waste your time. That being said we have plenty of resources on debunking Christianity here on Mi Yodeya, for example see here. – ezra Mar 25 '21 at 07:28
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    Christians are raised to inquire about the Tanakh, in an effort to understand Matthew 5:17. - Although church services / sunday schools study translations of the Tanakh called the "Old Testament" in their congregations / ministries, the effort to help clarify the context of Hebrew verses like Hosea 11:1 from the Tanakh will be difficult (based on the Christian belief in Matthew 2:15). Discussing Israel being HaShem's figurative first-born son in Exodus 4:22 vs. a literal son in John 3:18 can be difficult. When discussing the Talmud, Christians often do not accept Halakah (based on John 19:11). – חִידָה Mar 25 '21 at 12:05
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    As an aside, never forget that even if they may ask you a question that you don't know an answer to doesn't mean that there isn't an answer. – Yehuda Mar 26 '21 at 20:31
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    Christian here; why do you consider Christians idolators? Considering that in Christianity, Jesus is considered to be God incarnate, not a creature, how can we be accused of idolatry? That is, if we are as opposed to worshipping anyone other than God as you are, how can we be called idolators. Shouldn't you be arguing Jesus isn't HaShem incarnate, rather than 'you are idolators?' Trust me - we are as horrified about worshipping a creature as if a God as you are. That I can assure you. If you worship anyone other than God, you will go to hell unless you repent of it, according to Christianity. – SolaGratia Mar 27 '21 at 23:41
  • if Im not mistaken, according to Rambam you can discuss with Christians, but dont waste your time with Muslims. I guess is due their premise that Muslims believe Jewish are liers – juanora Mar 31 '21 at 15:21
  • I don't understand why the rest of the community tolerates your questions of "what should I do". THis is outlawed on this site. You should rephrase the question neutrally. – Al Berko Apr 02 '21 at 11:43
  • Also consider whether there is really a point of responding to them... Maybe just ignore them. They say, I think about the chofetz Chaim, that he had to read newspapers with apikorsus to keep tabs on what the maskilim were up to, but whenever he did he would learn the beginning if Bereishis (about the briya) to counteract what he saw. So maybe when anybody trys to convert you just ignore them, and learn the beginning of Bereishis. – Kovy Jacob Aug 02 '22 at 04:57

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According to the Talmud, the injunction to know what to respond to the heretic is specifically referring to non-Jewish heretics:

תנן התם ר"א אומר הוי שקוד ללמוד תורה ודע מה שתשיב לאפיקורוס אמר ר' יוחנן ל"ש אלא אפיקורוס (של) עובדי כוכבים אבל אפיקורוס ישראל כ"ש דפקר טפי
We learned in a mishna there (Avot 4:4) [sic: should be 2:14] : Rabbi Eliezer says: Be persistent to learn Torah, and know what to respond to the heretic [la’apikoros]. Rabbi Yoḥanan says: This was taught only with regard to a gentile heretic, but not with regard to a Jewish heretic, as one should not respond to him. All the more so, if one does respond he will become more heretical. His heresy is assumed to be intentional, and any attempt to rebut it will only cause him to reinforce his position.

That does not mean you need to waste your breath, but you should show them that you did not come to your positions out of ignorance. Here is a link you might find useful: https://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Know-How-to-Answer-Christian-Missionaries.html

N.T.
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If done in a friendly manner, I don’t see any reason to refrain. Christians should know the truth that there is only one G-d. We can respect their beliefs but do not worship idols.

Turk Hill
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    "Christians should know the truth that there is only one G-d." A truth Christians would whole heartedly agree with. So as you engage and respond to Christians, make sure you are both accurately understanding and representing the beliefs of each other lest you just end up talking past each other or arguing against straw men. – curiousdannii Mar 28 '21 at 01:28
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    'Christians don't believe in one God and worship idols' is a strawman. You won't get anywhere by beginning with a strawman. Jesus taught the most important commandment is: "Hear O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." The Creed begins, "I believe in one God." The Apostles say, "we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there be many that are called gods ... for us there is but one God." In other words, "Little children: keep yourselves from idols. Amen." (J Jn 5:21). – SolaGratia Mar 30 '21 at 21:42
  • @curiousdannii Thank you for your comment. I agree that many Christians accept that there is only one G-d. However, I never understood the concept of the trinity. Maimonides criticized Christianity strongly. He felt that the notion that there are three gods is philosophically impossible. The only exception I can think of would be the Unitarian Christians or the kind of Christianity like Leo Tolstoy in his “The Gospel in Brief,” Isaac Newton, and Thomas Jefferson in “The Jefferson Bible.” – Turk Hill Mar 30 '21 at 22:13
  • @SolaGratia Thank you for your comment. I agree that Christians accept that there is only one G-d. The Nicene creed says as much, "we believe in one G-d." However, how do you square this concept with the trinity? Unless you mean to say that Jesus was only a prophet? Additionally, Jesus never called himself G-d. And were places he did, it can be reinterpreted to make him say otherwise or are parables. Jesus liked parables. If Christians dislike idols, why do Catholics pray to them? They parade a statue of Mary in holidays. Martin Luther, as bad as he was, seemed to have a point there. – Turk Hill Mar 30 '21 at 22:16
  • @TurkHill Feel free to come to [christianity.se] if you'd like to ask those questions :) – curiousdannii Mar 30 '21 at 22:19
  • @curiousdannii I did ask some here and here. However, feel free to answer anything you like here. In a word, how do you understand the trinity? Thanks :) – Turk Hill Mar 30 '21 at 22:21
  • @TurkHill You raise too many questions to answer in a comment, but Jesus did identify as God: "I am the First and the Last." For instance. "I am He who searches the minds and hearts and give to every one according to his works." We believe He is the Word or Wisdom or Mind of God incarnate, not a separate entity from God. Not a different God. Immanuel. As a Catholic - parading a statue of a beloved saint is not 'idol worship.' Do you remember the ark? Statues are not idols. Nor are the people you depict in them.Like curiousdannii said, Christianity stack is the place to ask such questions. – SolaGratia Mar 30 '21 at 22:23
  • @SolaGratia Isn’t starues of Mary and Jesus a violation of the Decalogue: “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness”? As for Jesus being G-d incarnate, does it make sense that the Creator can become the created? and if we accept that G-d became a man, who is running the world? Where is the Father? And if we go down this rabbit hole, who's to say that Krishna is not also G-d incarnate? – Turk Hill Mar 30 '21 at 22:27
  • No, because the Decalogue doesn't forbid statues, only idols: "thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them." That's painfully clear from the context. As for Jesus being God incarnate, does it make senes that the Creator would ask a prophet to eat cakes of dung? The incarnation makes more sense to me than many other things. If God can dwell in a temple, why not a body: "for he spoke of the temple of his body." Where is the Father? God is everywhere. Not one single thing happens, not even evil, without God's permission. Why would we conclude Krishna is God if Yahweh became flesh? – SolaGratia Mar 30 '21 at 22:35
  • @SolaGratia I agree that the Bible prohibits idols. Yet the Decalogue says: “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image.” G-d also says: G-d is not a man, that he should lie. how do you interpret this? I agree that G-d is everywhere. Paul said He does not live in temples built by humans hands as though He were in need of anything. Therefore, it makes no sense to me that He could become a man. Furthermore, if we accept that Jesus is G-d incarnat, why not Krishna? Where do we draw the line? – Turk Hill Mar 30 '21 at 22:52
  • @SolaGratia Regarding the "dung," this may be a means to mock the evil queen Jezebel, who changed her name to "dung." This makes sense. – Turk Hill Mar 30 '21 at 23:28
  • Jezebel also worshiped the "dung." – Turk Hill Mar 30 '21 at 23:39
  • So SolaGratia, you will qualify under idolatry under Jewish law, which is foundational to understanding what idolatry is and is not. It is not according your definitions. – Kenny Xiong Apr 01 '21 at 18:45
  • @KennyXiong Yes, Maimonides felt that Christianity was idolatry, but Nachmanides felt it was only a heresy of Judaism. – Turk Hill Apr 01 '21 at 18:48
  • Trinnitarianism is idolatry according to the psak halacha of my locale. So with any Christian I don't feel compelled to waste time on anymore because it's the halacha not to teach Torah to idolaters. – Kenny Xiong Apr 01 '21 at 18:51
  • @KennyXiong Some commentators feel that Christianity is only "shittuf," the worship of G-d (the Father) with another being. Ironically enough, this is what G-d says He hates most in the Ten commandments. He would prefer idolatry to this! Rabbi Mosh-ben Chaim and I agree with him, rules that we should teach the truth and try to teach Christians the truths about Judaism if they're willing to listen. However, if it's between a Christian/non-Jew and an atheistic Jew, we must first talk to the Jew, then the non-Jew. – Turk Hill Apr 01 '21 at 19:19
  • When you say shituf is more abhorrent than idolatry, are you talking about the prohibition to make graven images? Which one of the Ten Commandments are you referring to? – Kenny Xiong Apr 08 '21 at 10:00
  • @KennyXiong Yes, "graven images," the second commandment, “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness.” – Turk Hill Apr 09 '21 at 03:23
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Don’t waste too much time on them. If they want to hear your defense you can explain to them but most of them would not listen or they come with hate! You can perhaps start your own website to explain. Some Gentiles might learn something from you.

agarza
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Kamil Levi Pyka
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The prohibition on teaching Torah to non-Jews does not apply to the mitzvot incumbent upon them (Sanhedrin 59a). The issues under dispute between Jews and Christians fall almost entirely into this category, so it would certainly not be prohibited to discuss these issues with them. As you seem to think that you have a high likelihood of success, in my view it would be a positive step. Although it is not directly related, you may enjoy my post Yerushalayim and the World

user18037
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It is not prohibited to speak to a Christian about faith, and it is important to note that while there are aspects of practiced Christianity that are considered heretical (such as bowing or worshipping icons, more common in certain Orthodox Christian churches), Christianity as a whole is considered in line with the Noahide covenant. Menahem Meiri notes that even in the case that Christians believe in multiple beings, such is permitted by Torah to goyim (See here). This is the concept of shittuf. A Christian of course would argue that Jesus is not a separate God or even being for that matter; instead He is a separate manifestation of a singular G-d. Despite that, one is not prohibited in any case in speaking to someone unless they have turned away from the faith.

Jackson Dunn
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  • "A Christian of course would argue that Jesus is not a separate God"–this is a Trinitarian view. A non-Trinitarian would say Jesus different from God. – agarza Mar 31 '21 at 17:13
  • If they believe in the trinity then they are idol worshippers. That removes them from the category of shituff into full avoda zorah. See the Divine Code. – Kenny Xiong Apr 01 '21 at 18:41
  • @KennyXiong this would only be the case if they believe in three separate gods, not in one G-d who manifests himself in multiple ways. – Jackson Dunn Apr 01 '21 at 20:52
  • Not according to the source I am holding. Can you bring your source please. – Kenny Xiong Apr 02 '21 at 02:45
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    Absolutely! Athanasius Creed (Orthodox Christian creed) states: "...and the...faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence." In other words, one God in three manifestations. To my understanding the bone of contention is/should be that Christians believe that G-d was himself the Moshiach and manifest as a man, not that he was a different god. And then that's a question of fact not heresy. – Jackson Dunn Apr 02 '21 at 14:01
  • @KennyXiong you pretend more knowledge than you have of Christianity. Please stop trying to speak for Christians. There is one law giver, and one judge. You are not He. – Adam Heeg Apr 03 '21 at 16:19
  • So the creed appears to substantiate the claim that Trinitarianism is idolatrous, because seeing a man as a manifestation of G-d is claiming that the person is G-d, rather than a shituf – Kenny Xiong Apr 08 '21 at 09:57
  • Not necessarily Adam. And your ad hominem is not a real argument. If you disagree with anything I said you are free to demonstrate where you differ. But seeing a man as synonymous with G-d rather than an intermediary to Him is idolatrous, according to the Rambam's thirteen principles and more. – Kenny Xiong Apr 08 '21 at 09:59