The credibility of National revelation

Question

I was discussing the credibility of "National Revelation" as a standard to accept or reject proof. I am a science, mathematic and law orientated person and this threshold to accept or reject a proof is actually mathematically and logically unjust. In law we base things on probability and justice. Say if seven people witness a person murder someone, the probability that person killed the person is very high. In life we base everything on probability. You would not put your hand in a bee’s hive, because the probability you would get stung is very high. You go to school as there is a higher probability of a better job with education etc... To say this person did not commit the murder as the whole town did not witness it is unjust as he probability did do it and frankly is playing blind. We know from significance testing based on sound reasoning, which we use for drugs and vaccines, that a small sample gives good mean of the entire population. This is mathematically and logically a fact, a proof and a evidence, but is not necessary to go through the math to show you this it is also just common sense. (If you want to research more on sample size for significance testing do some research on "power analysis").

If you believe that only a whole nation or the whole world discerning something is evidence then you should not take any vaccines or Drugs. I have worked with drugs for diabetes where we have published data on just 5 cells. To base evidence on a qualitative tag of "a person", "a group", "a village", "a Town", "a nation" or "the world" is not based on probability, And thus unjust as even if there are qualitative reasons why you think this is evidence, e.g. you as a Jewish nation together have witnessed, but in terms of probability this threshold is highly misleading to what is actually significant.

In some qualitative respects as a non Jew, if you look at it morally your way Moses could never have been a messenger of God as the world did not witness his miracles, surly God carers for all. In fact, correct me if I am wrong but according to Talmud, 80% of the Jews did not even decide to leave, so the whole nation could not have experienced this; your children did not witness this sign.

I have had experience with witchcraft and magic unfortunately being a victim of it and have some knowledge of how it is done, what it can do and what it cannot do. To have something speak to you and see something can be done by magic, to a person, a group or even a nation especially if the nation is stood in one place. In fact this is done very easily with magic.

My question is why would you reject evidence based on probability? This way of reasoning is unjust, it does not weigh up the evidences for and against in a just way. Secondly if there was messenger now, what would it take for you to believe in Him, "a town to witness", "a nation" or "the world" where is the cut-off point.

Please forgive the spelling as I am a science, mathematic and law orientated person and hate language/writing.

I don't understand your argument. You say "Say if seven people witness a person murder someone, the probability that person killed the person is very high" but if the claim is that the entire nation witnessed the revelation, that "To base evidence on a qualitative tag of "a person", "a group", "a village", "a Town", "a nation" or "the world" is not based on probability". Which is it? Some of the other details are wrong but that can wait. — rosends, Mar 22 '21 at 12:49
You are totally correct, there is no expectation on anyone who is outside of the Jewish nation to accept the veracity of the Jewish revelation. — The GRAPKE, Mar 22 '21 at 12:49
Do you have an example of Judaism rejecting such evidence, or advocacy thereof, such that there is a context to your question? Otherwise it seems like this might be more on topic on other Stack Exchange sites (Perhaps Philosophy, History of Science and Mathematics, etc.) — Alex, Mar 22 '21 at 12:59
The point is that the entire nation witnessed the revelation at Sinai. In the other religions there was no one other than the alleged prophet who received the revelation. — sabbahillel, Mar 22 '21 at 14:41
@TheGRAPKE That argument does not make sense at all. All three great religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam accept that Torah revelation took place in sinai. — Turk Hill, Mar 22 '21 at 16:58
@rosends Although they don't need to accept it, it's better if they do for many obvious reasons. — Turk Hill, Mar 22 '21 at 17:43
@rosends indeed all those examples have a probablility rosends, its rather that the probability needs to be much lower than it is required to be accepted as something significant in this idea of "national revelation". Thus something that is clearly evidence or proof based on reason is rejected, in short it is an unreasonable way of thinking and the idea the jewish nation witness this altogther isn't even a valid argument. — abdellahabib, Mar 22 '21 at 21:24
@TheGRAPKE by this do you mean that the jews believe God only is for them or only they will get heaven. — abdellahabib, Mar 22 '21 at 21:27
@sabbahillel According to this jewish web site https://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html the jews have set it as a standard that the entire nation needs to witness the revelation. see quote: "If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person." — abdellahabib, Mar 22 '21 at 21:34
@abdellahabib so by saying " the probability needs to be much lower than it is required to be accepted as something significant in this idea of "national revelation"." you indicate that TOO MANY people saw it for it to be persuasive? We have events that are attended by over a hundred thousand people. Did those events not actually happen because too many people saw them? What is the ceiling on witnesses before an event can't be attested to? — rosends, Mar 22 '21 at 22:10
@rosends, no rosends I am saying the opposite i.e. that many people are not required for it to be persuasive. It is persuasive if a whole nation witnessed the revelation but to set the threshold to "that many" people to witness a sign/miracle/revelation to be accepted has no reason and logic behind it. In fact it is reasonable to have the threshold a lot lower in terms of probability/reason/logic. I sorry if I have not wrote this clear, I do hate English and essay writting. — abdellahabib, Mar 22 '21 at 22:56
ah, so a lot of people would be persuasive if you happened to believe it. Got it. — rosends, Mar 22 '21 at 23:12
@abdellahabib No, I don't. I mean that Judaism is not a universalist religion so no-one else is obliged to subscribe to its world view. — The GRAPKE, Mar 22 '21 at 23:28
@abdellahabib It is not that there is a threshold to how many people need to see something for it to be believed but that it is a matter of fact that everyone at Mount Sinai saw the revelation. That is the entire point. — sabbahillel, Mar 22 '21 at 23:32
@TheGRAPKE Judaism is a universalist religion and everyone will accept it when the messiah arrives. Judaism is G-d's only religion. For non-Jews, there are the Seven Noahide Laws for this reason. True, Judaism is for Jews, but it can also serve non-Jews. — Turk Hill, Mar 23 '21 at 00:27
@rosends I wouldn't set myself as the threshold that would be subjective but perhaps a p value of less than 0.05, would be generally accepted significant. — abdellahabib, Mar 23 '21 at 04:52
@sabbahillel and why is that sabbahillel? (don't answer that it a retorial question). The reason is again based on probablilty as everything in life is. It is because for everyone to see revelation on mount sinia is incredible improbable if there is not a real living God and it is a sign that is probably more signifcant than those other signs in believing in a real, live God but it is to say those other signs Moses and other prophets before him did are also significant and there is no reason to reject something that is significant. — abdellahabib, Mar 23 '21 at 07:18
@TurkHill How do you know that the world of which you speak is contiguous with current reality? — The GRAPKE, Mar 23 '21 at 10:01
I'm not sure what your H0 is that you want to set up a P value or how you would compute it. Of course, this would not answer what I asked anyway, but TFP. — rosends, Mar 23 '21 at 10:38
@abdellahabib Could you be more specific about your question in relation to my worldview? Thanks. — Turk Hill, Mar 23 '21 at 16:15
@sabbahillel Isn't the threshold the masses who witnessed revelation? Surely you would agree that it takes masses as opposed to one person as we find in other religions? — Turk Hill, Mar 23 '21 at 16:16
@rosends but my name down or I might miss your comment. In signifianct testing it is easier to look at things as comparing things. e.g. you could compare the number of people that thought the works of some magicians, moses and/or normal people were magic out of 1-10. This would act as two controls, 1. you could say if Moses miracles were significantly different from magic, 2. and from what the ordinary man does. To do a t-test is easy you simply put the vaules in a t-test grid and press calculate. If p-value is <0.05 its is significant https://www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ttest1.cfm — abdellahabib, Mar 23 '21 at 22:25
@abdellahabib you would then be testing people's opinions of magic. This is a change from any concern about a claim that a number of people witnessed an event. You seem preoccupied by magic which is not an area which seems relevant so best of luck. — rosends, Mar 23 '21 at 23:25
@rosends I can see where you are going with this and can easily see the error in this way of thinking.in a t-test you have a normal population distribution, thus difference in opinion makes no difference. Also upon further reading I cannot find a referance in the scritpture where it says national revealtion is the threshold, it seems to be an opinion and also this opinion is requires according to deut 13, is that this so call prophet tells you to serve another God. So if another prophet comes does miracles but says worship only God you should have no grounds to reject him. — abdellahabib, Mar 26 '21 at 01:25
@rosends upon further reading magic is irrelavant as jews claim these false prophets will do miracles that are and/or are not magic. Thus it makes no difference if it is not magic. Still I cannot find anywhere where God says He will do this explicitly. Nevertheless the number of people that witness a sign needs not be a nation — abdellahabib, Mar 26 '21 at 01:26

Turk Hill · Answer 1 · 2021-03-22T18:24:03.427

0

Few points to make.

The probability that Moses lied to a nation and they accepted his story without question is practically impossible. If Moses came down the mountain and lied the Jews would have never accepted the Torah. It is more likely that he was telling the truth or some other thing.
The cut-off point is a national revelation. Rabbi Joseph Albo in Sefer Ha-ikkarim says that a future prophet can technically abolish all the biblical commands except for the Ten Commandments but he must do so in front of mass witnesses.
A Midrash says there were one billion Jews in Egypt, but midrashim are parables, not factual history.
Lastly, magic does not exist.[1] You cannot fool an entire nation with magic. At some point, they will realize it is a trick. Additionally, if you drugged the people they will soon become sober and realize the trick. Besides, what masses today become drunk and fooled so easily?

In short, there is no alternative Jewish history. It's mathematical possibly, indeed acceptable to say something took place in the desert that changed the world forever. All three great world religions accept that Sinai revelation took place.

[1] The Ibn Ezra (to Leviticus, 19:31) says, "Those with empty brains say 'were it not that fortune tellers and magicians were true, the Torah would not prohibit them.' But I (Ibn Ezra) say just the opposite of their words, because the Torah doesn't prohibit that which is true, but it prohibits that which is false. And the proof is the prohibition on idols and statues....."

edited Mar 22 '21 at 18:24

answered Mar 22 '21 at 16:56

Turk Hill

1,348
7
16

just two points.[1] how big does this mass of witnesses need to be. [2] if you know how do do magic, it is based on falsehood, worship of symbols, demones, sacrfices and acts that displease God and I am sure it is prohibited in deut18:10-... – abdellahabib Mar 22 '21 at 21:47
1 billion is 20 times higher than the world population at that time. I though the jews were a small group compared to others in the world now and at that time but these numbers seem to be outlandish – abdellahabib Mar 22 '21 at 23:05
@abdellahabib Thank you for your comments. The idea that there were one billion Jews is of course wrong. They were probably fewer than 600,000. I find that the Torah often exaggerates to make a point. The Midrash which says there were one billion is not meant to be accepted litteraly. Midrashim are parables that teach about proper behavior (Maimonides). – Turk Hill Mar 22 '21 at 23:15
To answer your second question, it would probably take a few hundred thousand to constitute "mass revelation." Even if this number was met, the prophet could not abolish the Ten commandments. As for magic, I do not think someone or anyone could convince the masses with it, because magic is fake and they would be able to realize the trick. You mentioned the worship of demons. According to Maimonides, demons do not exist. The Bible bans demons, witchcraft, magic, and idols not because they are real but because they are false (ibn Ezra). – Turk Hill Mar 22 '21 at 23:18
This is very useful, I feel I am learing a lot from this question. But I feel there is somewhat of contradiction here with regard to black magic not just for Judaism but for the Mi Yodeya stacl Exchanger. it seem sometime black magic is completely a false thing and when it suits certain individual it is something very real. See this quetion where some Jews have expressed that they are certain Jesus is a magician that I found: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/97195/do-jews-consider-jesus-to-be-a-magician – abdellahabib Mar 23 '21 at 06:49
@abdellahabib That is very interesting, but like I said, there are Jews, very wise Jews who do not think magic exists. There is different commentary and different views in Judaism. I prefer the rational approach of Rambam, for example. However, there is also a mystical approach that is more open to accept that magic exist. – Turk Hill Mar 23 '21 at 06:55
I also agree with many points Rambam makes. It seems the muslims are ahead of the black magic game. See this YouTube video 11min in how a lady suddenly speak pujabi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFdGaru-3dc&t=677s and there are more you can see that would increase you in knowledge like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2nUG5eMBus&t=3s as I have experienced black magic I can tell you it is very real whether that convinces you or not. The black magic that was done on me was not just witnessed by me but others around me in the thousands. I close on that point as its off topic – abdellahabib Mar 23 '21 at 07:39
if it was witnessed by thousands of others, then it probably didn't happen. That's too many. – rosends Mar 23 '21 at 10:40
@abdellahabib I'm glad you enjoy Rambam. I like him, too. With regards to your experience with magic, in your view, do you think the black magic was a trick someone played on you and others, like how the Witch of Endor tricked King Saul into believing he was seeing the dead Samuel when in reality, he saw nothing. It was only a trick. Or, are you convinced that magic, and specifically black magic is real and works, and the Bible prohibits this because it works? – Turk Hill Mar 23 '21 at 16:21
@TurkHill l black magic can be used as a trick, but you can use it to get your ends. For example there was a youtube video I cannot find where, a person did black magic on a lady so she could not speak in court to give evidence. Black magic oftern is used by envious ladies that use it to break relationship with husband and wife. In my case it was used to spy on my mind i.e. telepathy, thus by black magic you can probe into someones mind and interrogate them in a platform where it hard to not spill all their secretes. it can give feeling and give physical pains to people. make u stronger etc – abdellahabib Mar 23 '21 at 22:41
@abdellahabib So, you feel that black magic is real and works? I prefer to take a rational perspective. I do not believe in magic or black magic, nor do I think that telepathy works. I think all these things are superstitious. The Bible prohibits these things not because they work but because they are false and the proof is the prohibition on idols and statues. Surely, you would agree that idols are not real and do not process real power. Therefore, doesn't it make sense that magic is also trickery? – Turk Hill Mar 23 '21 at 22:50
@TurkHill you are correct idols are fake; the things in black magic like symbols they worship really have no meaning at all and evil act you do for black magic such as cutting ties, rolling/bathing in excement/urine, sacrafing animals not in the name of God. All on their own these do nothing. But, these things attract demones, that are happy with these act that displease God and then they do your bidding. The idols/rituals are falsehood and evil, but the demones are real. And it is through demones magic is done, thus the term "magic" is misleading as it is based on something real i.e. demons – abdellahabib Mar 23 '21 at 23:17
@abdellahabib I disagree. Maimonides (Rambam) felt that demons do not exist. It is inconceivable to imagine that G-d would create "dark forces" to distort the creation of the world in which the Bible calls "Very good." Belief in demons is spurious, and not why G-d gave man intelligence. – Turk Hill Mar 24 '21 at 00:24
@TurkHill people that do excosium talk to demones. Demones have character, intellegence and feeling. The one I have loves shamefulness, mis-guide people and hates when you do good deeds. If i nip my body I can hear it scream, and this is proportional to when I am nipping. It reacts strongly to acts of excosium, bathing/drinking holy water, etc... you can see such reaction on the internet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCynMnr_9W0 also people try to remove demones using demones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyScWfd_C6E how would he know where the magic was, this way is disliked by muslims. – abdellahabib Mar 24 '21 at 02:04
@abdellahabib But that sounds insane. There is no proof that demons exist. No amounts of youtube videos with fake actors will ever change that. Why do you accept something you cannot prove? If demons exist then "Zather" exists! From a philosophical point of view, it makes no sense that G-d, who is good, would allow dark "forces" to exist in a world which Genesis calls "Very good." – Turk Hill Mar 24 '21 at 04:38

score 0 · Answer 2 · answered Mar 23 '21 at 01:03

It would seem that two assumptions are being made which I believe are untrue. The first is that national revelation is a threshold standard. The second concerns the reason for national revelation.

The national revelation during the Exodus from Egypt and at Mount Sinai is a historical fact. It is exceptional evidence that God actually relates to the Jewish nation as recorded in the Torah. But that is not the standard needed to accept someone as a prophet. Moses was accepted by the people in Egypt with three minor signs, and perhaps even that was superfluous. National revelation is, however, the gold standard. Once there was national revelation, no lesser revelation can contradict it.

So, to answer the question, would we reject a prophet who performs miracles or even makes predictions that are witnessed by as few as two people? No, we would not reject him, but with a condition. If the prophet is in line with the teachings of Moses, he is to be believed; if he contradicts Moses, he is not to be believed.

The second assumption I would like to address, tangentiality, is the purpose of the revelation at Sini. All people of the world would be expected to accept it, but it is not directly relevant to non-Jews. The purpose was to establish an absolute trust in the teaching of Moses. To show that God exists and runs the world was already demonstrated in Egypt.

Once this was established, there is no need for reestablishing it for future generations; the fathers will teach the children. There was no need for the revelation to be for other nations; the commandments were not given to them. The fact that much of the nation did not leave Egypt is of no consequence, as they were not included in the commandments either (they were dead, BTW). There is no lack of concern with demonstrating anything to non-Jews; everything they needed to see, they saw.

The voice could have been produced by magic, you say. Perhaps. But the voice was only one part of the whole experience. Can magic produce "sounds and lightning, and a heavy cloud on the mountain, and the very strong sound of a horn"? Fire, smoke, and the mountain shaking? After seeing the Ten Plagues and the Splitting of the Sea?

And even if the external events could have been achieved by magic, who are we to question the ones who experienced the prophecy and said "today we have seen that God can speak to a person and he can live." They were sure that it was really God speaking to them; how can we argue?

It can be argued that G-d does not have vocal cords and therefore does not “speak.” — Turk Hill, Mar 23 '21 at 06:49
Thank you for that you have dis-spelled many of the assumptions. Magic can do alot it can also make you see and/or feel things but some of those sign it definetly could not do e.g. the seven Plagues as Magic cannot control weather. But one thing I need to know is that, if you consider there to be one God who created everything and has power over everything then does it not make sense for everyone to believe and follow Moses and these commandments and what ramifications will this have on judgement day for non-jews. — abdellahabib, Mar 23 '21 at 07:07
@TurkHill possibly he could make the air to vibrate, which is all that is require to make any sound. — abdellahabib, Mar 23 '21 at 07:08
@abdellahabib Doesn't it seem more improbable that Moses could generate the air to vibrate as opposed to Sinai revelation? — Turk Hill, Mar 23 '21 at 16:14
@abdellahabib, according to Judaism, non-Jews only have to keep seven commandments, and they were communicated to Adam and Noah. — Mordechai, Mar 24 '21 at 22:34
BTW, how could I learn about what magic can and cannot do? (To know when someone should be killed for witchcraft.) — Mordechai, Mar 24 '21 at 22:37
@Mordechai what are these 7 commandments. The best place to find out what magic can/cannot do is scripture. There are certain things only God can do e.g. control weather, create, give life, to know the unseen, cannot prevail God, etc... if you have experience in magic you will know it cannot do these things — abdellahabib, Mar 26 '21 at 00:33

The credibility of National revelation

2 Answers2