My question is if Samaritans go to Olam Haba. It would seem pretty obvious except for the fact they don’t recognize the Jewish people as Hashem’s Chosen. They also have their own slightly altered Torah, which I do not think would be allowed. The Samaritans of time past worshiped idols that they excused by not putting them “Before” Hashem. The Samaritans of past times also led Jews astray by defying the authority of rabbis or any rabbinic sources, while also in the end worshipping idols.
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I apologize for any ignorance I might display in this question. – Isaac Jul 19 '19 at 08:15
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3Welcome to MiYodeya Isaac and thanks for this first question. Great to have you learn with us! – mbloch Jul 19 '19 at 08:46
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1If we don't recognize them as Jews, they fall under regular requirements for Gentiles, and that's then 7 Noahide laws that they seemingly follow. – Al Berko Jul 19 '19 at 11:18
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Besides it's important to know, IMHO all our statements about the Next World are motivational or educational - to endorse observation of the Torah. 1. We don't really know what is happening there 2. G-d always has an option of overriding all the rules (as He did for Menashe). – Al Berko Jul 19 '19 at 11:23
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@AlBerko sure they're non-Jews (they are not from the tribe of Judah) but they are fellow Israelites. Now, if you say that they are not obligated under the 613 commandments, you are admitting that Judaism is not early Torah? – Turk Hill Sep 09 '21 at 04:26
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@AlBerko If G-d spoke to a multitude, including all the Israelites, aren't they also obligated to the 613? I don't think anyone has ever asked that question before. – Turk Hill Sep 09 '21 at 04:26
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1@TurkHill That definition of "Jew" is a semantic game. If, theoretically, they are not recognized as Jews (i.e. from the 12 Tribes, by legal rabbinic definition) they would fall under the aegis of the 7 Noahide laws. If, theoretically, they are recognized as Jews, they would be obligated by the 613 mitzvos, as you suggest. The question that therefore must be answered is, are they considered Jews by rabbinic definition, and why or why not? – Yehuda Sep 09 '21 at 06:08
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The samaritans of the past who worshipped idols and led Jews astray should not be relevant to a discussion of current Samarians – Schmerel Sep 09 '21 at 15:18
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@TurkHill So we’re to decide if they ARE Jews or not: if they are, we can intermarry with them, and they are obligated the 613. If not, the opposite. If you recognize them as Jews they don't need conversion. Do they? – Al Berko Sep 11 '21 at 20:02
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@AlBerko So your saying if they are Jews they are obligated the 613. If not, just 7. If this is so, this indicates that the oral law was invented by the rabbis and is not divine. Samarians do not have to be Jews. They are Israelites. If G-d revealed oral law to all Israelites, not just Jews (the tribe of Judah), they are obligated the 613. No? – Turk Hill Sep 13 '21 at 02:59
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@Yehuda So your saying if they are Jews they are obligated the 613. If not, just 7. If this is so, this indicates that the oral law was invented by the rabbis and is not divine. Samarians do not have to be Jews. They are Israelites. IF G-d revealed oral law to all Israelites, not just Jews (the tribe of Judah), they are obligated the 613. No? – Turk Hill Sep 13 '21 at 03:00
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@TurkHill Again, you're doubling down on the semantic game. Please reread my comment and you'll see that what you're saying is clearly defined and explained within that framework. – Yehuda Sep 13 '21 at 10:54
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@Yehuda reread it and your mistaken. You seem to say that if they are "theoretically" Jews (whatever that means) then they are obligated the 613. If not, only the 7. This contradicts Rabbinic tradition which says that G-d revealed Torah (and presumably Oral Torah) to all the Israelites at Mt. Sinai. Some say at Sinai we all converted and became Jews. This is stupid as Jews are only one tribe (Judah) out of many (12 tribes in total). Samarians can be of the tribe of Dan, for example, and still be obligated the 613. Esseanly, not only Jews are obligated but all of Israel. – Turk Hill Sep 13 '21 at 17:38
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1@TurkHill An interesting observation I've never thought of. So besides Jews and gentiles, there are ancient Israelites (not to be confused with contemporary Israelis :) who fall in some Halachic pit. – Al Berko Sep 14 '21 at 22:21
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@AlBerko Yes, that is correct. I'm glad you agree. :) – Turk Hill Sep 14 '21 at 22:56
4 Answers
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Samaritans are non-Jews (see here for details). I once asked a religious tour guide who has been many times to Har Gerizim. He told me that today "As far as anyone can tell they are complete monotheists".
As such, according to the Rambam, a Samaritan who would observe the seven mitzvot Bnei Noach is considered one of 'the pious among the gentiles' and will merit a share in the world to come (see Hilchot Melachim 8:11 as well as the end of Hilchot Tshuva 3:5).
This being said, we are not specialists of the Samaritans here on MiYodeya. To the extent that individual Samaritans would violate the rules of the Rambam in Hilchot Tshuva 3:6-13, this answer may change for these individuals.
mbloch
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1I do not believe Maimonides believed that Christians of his day could ever be considered chasidei umot haolam inasmuch as he viewed their religion as idolatrous. Furthermore, I believe he does seem to require that their observance of the 7 laws has to be consciously based on the Mosaic code. Furthermore, there's a strong argument to be made that adding religious elements could also be a problem. – Loewian Jul 19 '19 at 14:03
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[I don't know enough about the Samaritans or their beliefs, and in accordance with the MiYodea guidelines, my answer is not required to have any knowledge of other religions]
Although gentiles definitely can merit World to Come for their good deeds, it is unlikely that the Samaritans mention in his question will.
The Mishne in Sanhedrin (Chapter 10) writes:
ואלו שאין להם חלק לעולם הבא - האומר אין תחיית מתים מן התורה, ואין תורה מן השמים, ואפיקורס
If the Samaritans do not accept the Torah as absolute truth, and do not accept the validity of Hashem's Torah (having their own version will not help matters), then they go into the category of those who do not merit World to Come.
chortkov2
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1seems reasonable, but doesn't that apply for Jews only? I don't recall a similar requirement for Gentiles. – Al Berko Jul 19 '19 at 11:16
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Because the Mishna deals with the Jews. Noahides seems fine with their 7 laws. – Al Berko Jul 19 '19 at 11:18
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1רמב״ם פ״ח שופטים: ׳כל המקבל שבע מצוות ונזהר לעשותן, הרי זה מחסידי אומות העולם. ויש לו חלק לעולם הבא. והוא שיקבל אותן ויעשה אותן מפני שציווה בהן הקב"ה בתורה, והודיענו ע"י משה רבינו, שבני נוח מקודם נצטוו בהן. אבל, אם עשאן מפני הכרע הדעת, אין זה גר תושב, ואינו מחסידי אומות העולם – chortkov2 Jul 19 '19 at 11:36
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Related:https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/18628/is-it-permitted-for-a-ben-noach-be-an-atheist?noredirect=1&lq=1 – chortkov2 Jul 19 '19 at 11:40
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I'm confused, don't they believe in Hashem and Moses and the TOrah? They didn't accept the Rabbinical way, but they are loyal to the TOrah, isn't it pictured in the Q? – Al Berko Jul 19 '19 at 11:44
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1Loyal to a scroll is not believing in the truth and validity of the Torah. They do not believe in Torah Shebaal Peh, nor do they believe in the absolute truth of Torah Shebichsav (slightly altered Torah...) – chortkov2 Jul 19 '19 at 13:18
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https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/11283/can-a-noachide-continue-to-believe-in-religious-tenets-that-are-against-the-tora/11287#11287 @AlBerko – wfb Jul 19 '19 at 14:12
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Muslims do not believe in the validity of our Torah (they think it's been altered, like the Samaritans) – Aaron Jul 19 '19 at 21:29
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Do Hindus go to Olam Haba? Samaritans do not worship idols. They are our brothers. While they are not Jews, they are fellow Israelites. True, their Torah changed a bit, but they are still closer to Hashem's original Torah than, say, Muslims and Christians.
Anyone who keeps 7 laws or 613 (depending on if you are Jewish or not) gets Olam Haba.
Turk Hill
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@Harel13 Yes. Would you agree that Samaritans are ancient Isrealites? – Turk Hill Sep 10 '21 at 16:35
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"Yes" what? You haven't included sources in your answer yet...and no, I see no reason to consider the Samaritans to be "ancient Israelites", whatever that means. – Harel13 Sep 11 '21 at 18:14
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@Harel13 They are Israelites. Now the question is, as such, are they obligated the 613? They do not need to be Jews. Jews are from the tribe of Judah. G-d revealed the Torah and Oral Torah (613) to all the tribes of Israel. Unless your going to say the Oral Torah is only for Jews since it is a later invention by the rabbis? – Turk Hill Sep 13 '21 at 03:02
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The term "Jew" has long been synonymous with "Israelite". Even in the Second Temple Era there were people who were known descendants of the Ten Tribes. Yet they were Jews like everyone else. Samaritans are descendants of foreign tribes that were exiled to Samaria by the Assyrians. Then they converted out of fear from being attacked by lions, but they refused to completely join the Jewish Nation, as well adding over the years more and more customs that did not fall in line with Torah. So, what's your evidence that Samaritans are "Israelites" in any way? – Harel13 Sep 13 '21 at 05:24
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@Harel13 Science showed that they are Jews. The paternal genetic haplotype is of four out of their five clans (J1 and J2), they are, as Rabbi Akiva taught, descendants of kohanim. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t argue that genetics prove Ashkenazim are Middle Eastern Jews (and not Khazar model for R1a), while at the same time, dismiss what science teaches about genetics proving that Samaritans are also Israelites. To dismiss this is to reject science. It is also dead wrong. They're perhaps some of the greatest of the Jewish People. We are all ISRAELITE. – Turk Hill Sep 13 '21 at 17:41
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@Harel13 As such, they are obligated the 613. Not all of them were exiled. Only the elite. Most of the tribes remained. Genetics prove this. And your wrong. Jews were referred to as Jews in second temple times because they were the only tribe left in the southern region. The Northern region were not Jews but Isrealites. – Turk Hill Sep 13 '21 at 17:43
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I have not mentioned DNA here. Perhaps you're mixing me up with others. In any case, I (an Ashkenazi Jew) don't prove my Judaism with DNA. I have my family's traditions and the fact that for generations we have been part of communities that were aware of the authenticity of our Jewish identity. One thing's for certain: Whatever sort of DNA the Samaritans may or may not have, their supposed Jewish identity was rejected long ago by the Jewish people. – Harel13 Sep 13 '21 at 18:06
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Also, read the gemara again. Rabbi Akiva said that the priests that joined them were real priests. That doesn't make all of them real Israelites. Again, multiple foreign tribes make up the ethnic group that is now known as the Samaritans. Also, R"A was the minority opinion. A generation later, his student Rabbi Meir already rejected the Samaritans completely (see Beresheet Rabbah 94:7). And later their Jewish status was fully removed (see Chullin 6). – Harel13 Sep 13 '21 at 18:06
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Therefore, they are not obligated by the 613, not being Jews. In fact, not being Jews, they can't keep Shabbat, for example. I think it's better for them, this way, because by your measurements, they're some of the worst sinners in the Jewish world, considering their various customs and views. – Harel13 Sep 13 '21 at 18:06
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@Harel13 They are not Jews. They are Israelites. When Chazal said they are not one of us (12 tribes) they were dead wrong. The rabbis also used bigotry unmatched in Samaritan literature. They keep Shabbat. Arguably, they would argue, that they are keeping an early form of Judaism and Torah laws. They would argue that you are the biggest sinner for "adding and subtracting" from the Torah via oral laws. Genetics means nothing to you until anti-semites call us Khazars or say we do not have the right to Israel since we are Europeans. Then we all run to genetics. – Turk Hill Sep 13 '21 at 18:16
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Do Samaritans go to Olam Haba? Why not? They are partly Jewish in one regard and reject the Qur'an and the teachings of Christianity in the other. To suggest they don't would be akin to claim that the reform Jews/Karaites, though observant to their form of Judaism, do not make it to heaven, is absurd. For instance, Menachem Kellner believes that reform Jews are "true Jews" and should not be shunned from the Jewish community. It is not an all or nothing acceptance for them. Judaism, he says, relies on observance, not beliefs.
I would like to add that the Samaritans (not Zoroastrians) had a temple on Mount Gerizim granted by Alexander the Great, not Mount Moriah which was/is established by G-d. Like the Edomites and Pharisees before them, they also follow a form of Judaism, though their form is wrong, we should not ban them unless they support Palestine. I am a zionist. Unlike Zoroastrianism's Wise lord, G-d [Hashem] speaks to all people. All ages. And all Jews.
Turk Hill
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Seems like my answer has 3 downvotes. In any event, people can technically be partially pregnant if you are pregnant for three months. This is a technicality. For example, Jack Black is part Jewish. – Turk Hill Jul 19 '19 at 15:43
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No, that's not "partially pregnant," that's "pregnant with a partially formed embryo." And no, Jack Black is not "part Jewish"; his mother is Jewish, so he's Jewish. That's how Jewish law defines it. – Meir Jul 19 '19 at 16:24
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Halachically yes, you are right that if the mother is not Jewish, the child is not. But ethnically, if the father is Jewish and not the mother, s/he should be considered Jewish or at least "part Jewish" in that regard. They have Jewish DNA after all, do they not? Robert Downey Jr. is part Jewish even though his mother is not. (His father is Lithuanian and Hungarian Jewish). – Turk Hill Jul 19 '19 at 17:23
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2What on earth are you talking about? The man is Jewish, period. And if his mother isn't Jewish (as with your last example), then he's not Jewish. He may have "Jewish DNA" (whatever that means - Judaism isn't based only on DNA), he may or may not be a fine human being, but he's not Jewish or "part Jewish" or whatever. – Meir Jul 19 '19 at 18:02
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@MonicaCellio I am referring the reform Jews to the Samaritans (part Jews is any) because of their supposed Jewishness, if that makes sense. – Turk Hill Jul 24 '19 at 16:28
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@TurkHill many Reform Jews are unambiguously 100% Jewish. Some are not because of the ruling on patrilineal descent. Treating the former as non-Jews or using terms like "supposed Jewishness" is both insulting and untrue. Even the most unobservant Jew is still a Jew. Do we wish people would do better? Sure, but we can't just pretend only "our kind" of Jews are really Jews. – Monica Cellio Jul 24 '19 at 19:38
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@MonicaCellio That is exactly the point I am trying to defend. That not only Orthodox Jews are Jews. Reform Jews are also Jews by Jewish law and ethnicity. I think you confused my point with Meir’s. – Turk Hill Jul 24 '19 at 19:44
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@Meir I disagree with your assesment there is no idea of being partly Jewish. Halakhically via Rabbinic rules this may be so. But as far as I know God will be the one to make the final call about who is Israelite and who is not. – Aaron Sep 09 '21 at 18:15
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@Aaron G-d gave us a Torah, and put the rabbis in charge of determining the laws for us to follow (see Deut. 17:10-11). "The Torah is not in heaven" (ibid. 30:12, see Bava Metzia 59b), so "halakhically via Rabbinic rules" is the final word on the subject. – Meir Sep 09 '21 at 20:30
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@Meir I disagree. First, as Aaron correctly pointed out to me in another post, there is scientific evidence that the Samaritans are fellow Israelites. The paternal genetic haplotype is of four out of their five clans (J1 and J2), they are, as Rabbi Akiva taught, descendants of kohanim. Yes, from halakhah they are not Jews. They are not of the tribe of Judah. But they are Israel. – Turk Hill Sep 09 '21 at 22:51
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@Meir In short, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t argue that genetics prove Ashkenazim are Middle Eastern Jews (and not Khazar model for R1a), while at the same time, dismiss what science teaches about genetics proving that Samaritans are also Israelites. To dismiss this is to reject science. It is also dead wrong. They're perhaps some of the greatest of the Jewish People. We are all ISRAELITE. – Turk Hill Sep 09 '21 at 22:51
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@Meir God gave us a Torah, and put the Kohanim and Levites in charge of determining the laws for us to follow. (see Deut. 17:9-11). And at some point it seems like they were not worthy stewards of the tradition and so the Rabbis rose to power and we (followers of the oral tradition) allowed them to have the authority that God had originally given to the priests, levites, and judges. Therefore I do not consider halakhically via Rabbinic rules to be the final word on the subject because God didn't clearly put the Rabbis in chage. – Aaron Sep 10 '21 at 16:38
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@Meir But I'm a rabbinate, and so I do consider the halakhic rulings to be the most authoritative rulings. But I feel convicted to separate my belonging to Rabbinic Judaism from the reality that there's no direct transmission of power from God to the Rabbis. Therefore I leave the final question of rulings that are beyond our ability to know for sure (such as who is or isn't a Jew/Israelite) to God, as he will Always be The Final Judge. – Aaron Sep 10 '21 at 16:41