Given the family is mahram, there wouldn't be lust or any evil thoughts involved what would be the issue to that. Please provide a sound argument from Quran and Hadith, to justify a claim or counter.
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Have the males reached puberty? – Ahmed Mar 15 '20 at 06:38
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For argument's sake, yes – EPIC Tube HD Mar 16 '20 at 04:37
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No, according to the majority. That is because the texts preventing a woman from imamah over men:
- are general, not specific to strangers
- do not provide a criterion (such as lust or any evil thoughts) on which they are conditional
- do not make an exception for a mahram
Whereas texts on imamah of women (such as those narrated from or regarding Aisha, Umm Salama and Umm Waraqah) specify that they only lead other women. [see مصنف ابن أبي شيبة]
A few jurists have considered it permitted under specific conditions, for example when there is no other male who knows recitation. This view is based on the second of the variants of the hadith of Umm Waraqah:
أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أذن لها أن يؤذن لها ويقام وتؤم نساءها
The Messenger of Allah ﷺ gave her permission that adhan be called, iqamah be said and that she lead her women in prayer.
وكان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ... وأمرها أن تؤم أهل دارها
The Messenger of Allah ﷺ ... commanded her to lead the inmates of her house in prayer.
For Reference:
فلا يجوز للمرأة أن تؤم الرجل عموما -ولو زوجها- عند عامة أهل العلم، وذهب بعض أهل العلم إلى صحة ذلك في النافلة، أو قيام رمضان بقيود
— https://www.islamweb.net/ar/fatwa/295672/
لا يجوز للمرأة أن تؤم الرجل سواء أكان زوجها أم ابنها أم أباها
It is not allowed for a woman to lead men in prayer, regardless if he is her husband, son or brother.
— Ibn al-Uthaymeen, translation of فتاوى المرأة
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Can you please state what text are you referring to in the first statement. The link just directs me to another post. Or could you provide a proper reason as to why a woman can't lead a family of mahrams, given that she wants to? – EPIC Tube HD Mar 16 '20 at 04:42
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1@EPICTubeHD The answer to that question has quoted the relevant texts. What one wants to do is not of any weight in matters of ritual worship, it must be done according to how it has been taught and there need not be a logical reason behind it that we can comprehend. – UmH Mar 16 '20 at 05:33
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Yes, I have looked at those quotes from the hadith. But I don't think, it can be said general. It's pretty clear it's based on the context of a mosque with men as the imam. I would honestly think, a claim that a quote is very general needs to be backed with evidence from prominent scholars or from other hadiths. Because no verses or hadith of Islam can be judged without context and just saying it applies to all situation, would seem awkward to say, IMO – EPIC Tube HD Mar 17 '20 at 16:34
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Additionally, I do agree when there's a clear verse from the Quran or narration from hadith...as a ruling from Allah without no corresponding or logical reasoning...we must trust Allah and take the rules into consideration. For example, how women are not allowed to visit the graveyard...no proper explanation can be given but it was mentioned pretty clear (if my knowledge is correct) but yea...in that case yes. But in the case, of a woman leading say a mother leading her children and husband, just because he wants to praise Allah and recite her verse aloud and lead her family to prayer.... – EPIC Tube HD Mar 17 '20 at 16:38
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Now...for such a situation to be stated forbidden, raise a lot of interesting questions. Now don't get me wrong, if it's haram, khalas, I accept it to be haram and I'll trust Allah with his ruling, but when there's no explicit mention we must be clear on what we say and not make general assumptions. If I am not wrong, the hanabali/Hanifa school of thought uses a lot of reasoning to come up with logical understanding of the ruling, now if a ruling that is based on "general assumption" seems illogical...then ofc we have to ask questions to clarify the situation. – EPIC Tube HD Mar 17 '20 at 16:41
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@EPICTubeHD Apparently the texts are general. For example to have 'women' stand behind the 'men' (there are hadith where it also applies to mahrams) or to not appoint a 'woman' as imam over 'man'. It isn't at all clear that it is restricted to non-mahrams only and evidence is infact needed for a claim which goes against the literal meaning. – UmH Mar 17 '20 at 16:53
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Okay, the hadith u quoted showed the the Prophet himself was leading the prayer, and if I am not mistaken Anas stood by the prohet while his mother was on the side. Now the prophet wans't mahram to the mother or Anas. So my argument doesn't really apply to this hadith at all. I understand that it's not all clear that it's resistricted to non-mahrams only, but surely logic dictates other wise. Okay, just for the sake of dicussion say that it's true that it's haram for a woman to lead a group of mahrams. What does this say, or in other words what does it mean in your opinion? – EPIC Tube HD Mar 17 '20 at 17:31
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1@EPICTubeHD The Prophet was a mahram to the woman (Umm Sulaym or Umm Haraam), but that is not all. Anas stood besides the Prophet and not with his mother like two males would have stood behind the imam. This is evidence that a woman does not stand with or in front of a mahram but stands behind the men. By extension she can not be an imam over them as that involves being besides or in-front of the congregation. I don't understand what you mean to ask at the end. I have updated my answer with some scholarly references. – UmH Mar 17 '20 at 18:31
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I see that you've provided valid evidence. But regardless, I can't help but question the reasoning behind it. Cuz it is quite interesting to understand why is that men is favoured to lead the prayer over a woman, regardless of any form of lust being part of the equation. Say, for example, a woman is praying with her boys who can barely recite the surahs, but they still can. Will the boys be favoured in such a situation over the woman. What does that say about Islam? – EPIC Tube HD Mar 18 '20 at 03:47
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Islam promotes the idea, of gender equality but not to the extent of male and female are completely equivalent to each other. The difference in the inheritance between man and woman, with a man getting a higher share is not because man is great but because Allah has given the man some qualities to fulfil responsibilities for the family. If a man is favoured more in a family of mahrams, where one can barely recite a surah over a woman who has memorized the entire Quran. This does beg a lot of question, Don't u think? – EPIC Tube HD Mar 18 '20 at 03:53
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@EPICTubeHD No I don't think so and I think that such questions\objections only arise in a mind preconditioned to judge everything from the POV of secular values. Imamat as-Salah is not for the personal benefit of the Imam, rather it is a ritual towards Allah to be done according to how He has ordained. Allah chooses for His service whom He wills and He is not answerable for His choices. He chose mankind over the angels (2:30) although they are infallible and excessive in worship, and in the same way He chose men over women in some matters and vice versa in others. – UmH Mar 18 '20 at 08:57
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You should also think about whether a woman knowing more of the Quran outweighs the shortage in her overall deeds: being excused from obligations like prayers during periods, jihad, hijrah etc. and not having to cope with the added burden of earning and financial maintenance of others. – UmH Mar 18 '20 at 08:57
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Yes, I do agree with the fact that Allah has ordained certain things for man and certain things for woman, and has put certain conditions for the Imamat as Salah which also includes for men to be imams to lead the woman in prayer regardless of them being mahram or non mahram. Ofc woman are excused from prayers, with regards to their biological characteristics. But the fact is that I am not arguing that woman must always always at all times lead her mahram relative to prayers, but rather if it's possible at all. – EPIC Tube HD Mar 18 '20 at 09:05
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I understand the evidences u have provided. But in some special situation such as the example I have provided before. Say a woman is praying with her 12 year old son, who can't say all the surahs properly with proper pronounciation. In that case, can a woman lead her boys to prayer or accoriding to the ruling, she doesn't and not pray the prayer in congregation at all. – EPIC Tube HD Mar 18 '20 at 09:08
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There is no guidance in the Qu'ran itself on this.
Within the Hadith, none of the following reports concerned women-led prayer was deemed entirely reliable by classical scholars in the four main Sunni traditions due to a weakness in the chain of transmitters - they all go back to a single unreliable narrator:
Aisha
a. A woman reported that 'Aisha led us. And she stood between us during obligatory prayer.
b. It is reported that 'Aisha used to say the adhan, the iqama and lead women in prayer whilst standing amongst them in the same row.
c. It is reported that 'Aisha used to lead women in prayer during the month of Ramadan while standing among them in the same row.
Umm Salama
Umm Salama led us [women] in the afternoon prayer and stood amongst us (in the same row).
Umm Waraqa
a. The Prophet (pbuh) used to visit Umm Waraqa in her own home; he appointed a mu'adhdhin (muezzin) for her, and ordered her to lead the members of her household salat (obligitary prayers).
b. Abu Dawud reports that Umm Waraqa said, “I said: O Messenger of God! Permit for me to participate in the raid with you. I'll nurse your sick. Perhaps God will grant me martydom!” He said, “Remain in your house. For verily God will grant you martydom.” And she asked permission to take a mu'adhdhin in her dar (home or neighbourhood). And she allowed her.
Notably, whilst the transmission has a weak link, two of the hadith mutually corroborate each other and this is important; however, for the Maliki school, what was known about the islamic practise in Medina over-ruled any weak hadith; thus the Malikis discounted this evidence and ruled that all women-led forms of worship are prohibited, including when the congregation was solely made up of women, or just women of their own household.
The Shafi'i and Hanafi schools, however, were willing to use these reports and so ruled these forms of worship legal. The Hanbali went one step further and accepted all three reports. They preferred a somewhat reliable report to other forms of legal evidence such as arguing by analogy. Thus Hanbali were willing to argue that women are permitted to lead mixed-gender congregations in special prayers such as the tarawih if she stands behind the men whilst doing so.
According to Ibn Rushd (Averroes), the hadith concering Umm Waraqa is the key evidence supported unrestricted female prayer leadership over men; and it's important to add, that according to Ibn al-Arabi,
"There are those who unconditionally permit women to lead men [in prayer], which is my opinion as well. There are those who completely forbid her from such leadership and there are those who permit her to lead women, but not men. Their reasoning is that the Messenger of God (pbuh) testified that some women attained perfection just as he testified regarding some men - even though the later were more than the former.
This perfection is in reference to prophecy, and prophecy is leadership (imama), thus a women's leadership (in prayer) is sound. The default state is that her leadership is permissible, and one should not listen to those who prohibit it without proof, for there is no text to support their claim, and any evidence they bring forth [is not female specific, and] could include them in the prohibition as well, thereby neutralizing the evidence in this regard, and maintaining the default state of her leadership's permissibility"
Al-Futuhat Al Makiyya
One can ask, given this view, and the divergence with the former, whether women have been disinherited in the Sunni traditions ...
Mozibur Ullah
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Wait....so, when u're talking about "woman leading men", are u referring to a woman leading "mahram men". Can u clarify on that, please? – EPIC Tube HD Mar 25 '20 at 03:14
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