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In this excerpt from the Vayaviya Samhita of the Shiva Purana, various time scales are described:

Brahma's one day is equivalent to a kalpa. He is of unmanifest origin. A thousand kalpas make a year of Brahma. A Brahma's yuga comprises of eight thousand Brahma years. A thousand Brahma yugas make one Savana of Brahma. Brahma's life span consists of three thousand and three Savanas.... A day of Vishnu is the life time of Brahma. A day of Rudra is equivalent to the life time of Vishnu. A day of Sadashiva is life period of Shiva. A day of Sakshat Shiva is the life period of Sadashiva. The life time of Sadashiva is equal to the life period of five hundred and forty thousand of the previous deities. This function of time has been directed by Sakshat Shiva.

This has some discrepancies with time scales given in other scriptures; see my answer here. But my question is about the hierarchy of gods described in this chapter. Most of it is not surprising from a Shaivite perspective; the Shaiva Agamas say that the order of the gods from lowest to highest is Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Maheshwara, and Sadashiva.

But my question is, who is this "Sakshat Shiva" whose one day is equivalent to the entire lifetime of Sadashiva? My understanding is that Shaivites equate Sadashiva with the supreme Brahman, in the same way that that Vaishnavas believe the supreme Brahman is Para Vasudeva (see my answer here). So how can there be a being called Sakshat Shiva is who is superior to Sadashiva?

Are there any other scriptures which discuss Sakshat Shiva and his relation to Sadashiva? Also, this answer suggests that the Turiya state of the Upanishads is associated with Maheshwara, and that the Turiyatita state which I discuss here is associated with Sadashiva. So do Shaivites believe in a state of consciousness higher than Turiyatita, associated with Sakshat Shiva?

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Keshav Srinivasan
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  • It helps to know the actual verse. The verse states, Ishvarasya dine rudrah, Sadaakhyasya tatheshvarah, sakshat shivasya tatsankhya, tatha so api sadashivah. 1/2 – Surya Nov 02 '15 at 16:10
  • The translation of the verse (according to me) is: A lifetime of Rudra is the day of Ishvara (not 'Shiva', Ishvara). The eternally known one's day is the lifetime of Ishvara; and the Supreme Lord Shiva's day is similarly the lifetime of that Shiva (the eternally known one), and thus this Supreme Shiva is called Sadashiva. So, Sadashiva is the highest after all. (Just to make sure that this qualifies as an answer, I shall wait for your comments.) – Surya Nov 02 '15 at 16:14
  • @Surya where did you get that verse? – The Destroyer Nov 02 '15 at 16:21
  • @AnilKumar It's from the PDF linked to in my question. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 02 '15 at 16:33
  • Or the split of the verse could be like this: The life of Rudra is the day of Ishvara, and similarly the day of The Supreme deity Shiva, eternally known, is the lifetime of this Ishvara, and for this reason he is called the Eternal SHiva, or Sadashiva. – Surya Nov 02 '15 at 16:46
  • Not to disturb the equilibrium of this question, but there is a verse just after, which says that 540,000 such days of Sadashiva constitute his lifetime, and a day of Parameshvara. – Surya Nov 02 '15 at 16:49
  • @Surya Judging by the English translation, I think Sakshat Shiva is being used as synonymous with Parameshwara, but I don't know Sanskrit so you'd be able to tell better than me. But yeah, regardless the text states that there is something greater than Sadashiva, so that's what needs to be explained. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 02 '15 at 16:52
  • @RaviJ Well, regardless of whether you think the Shiva Purana is right about this, I want to understand what it is saying. I want to understand what being is described as greater than Sadashiva. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 02 '15 at 16:57
  • @RaviJ OK, but I'm not sure how that addresses my question. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 02 '15 at 16:59
  • @ChinmaySarupria But my understanding is that in the Shaivite view, Saguna Brahman corresponds to Maheshwara and Nirguna Brahman corresponds to Sadashiva. And this answer suggests that Turiya corresponds to Maheshwara, and the Turiyatita state corresponds to Sadashiva. So I don't know what it would mean in the Shaivite worldview for something to be higher than Sadashiva and the Turiyatita state. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 03 '15 at 04:35
  • @ChinmaySarupria By the way, Turiyatita is another subject where the Shaiva Agamas seem to differ from Advaita; see my question here: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/8944/36 – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 03 '15 at 04:46
  • @KeshavSrinivasan The excerpt you posted says that Sakshat Shiva is greater than Sadashiva. Isn't that the answer to your question? – Pinakin Nov 03 '15 at 12:34
  • @ChinmaySarupria That's not the answer to my question, that is my question! Sadashiva is generally described as the supreme Brahman, so I'm trying to understand how it makes sense in the Shaivite worldview for Sakshat Shiva to be superior to Sadashiva. So I'm looking for other scriptures that discuss the relationship between Sadashiva and Sakshat Shiva. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 03 '15 at 12:44
  • Um... as I said, there is no 'Sakshat Shiva', it is Sakshat 'Shiva', meaning the 'Real' or 'Supreme Lord' Shiva. And that Shiva is called Sadashiva. – Surya Nov 03 '15 at 12:46
  • @KeshavSrinivasan From where did you got the idea that Sadashiva is the supreme Brahman? – Pinakin Nov 03 '15 at 12:49
  • @Surya Like I said, I'm not sure whether the chapter is equating Sakshat Shiva with Parameshwara, but either way it is at least asserting that Parameshwara is superior to Sadashiva. So that is what I'm trying to understand. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 03 '15 at 12:51
  • @KeshavSrinivasan Because if Shiva Purana says Sakshat Shiva is greater than Sadashiva then it doesn't matters if someone else says Sadashiva is supreme. – Pinakin Nov 03 '15 at 12:55
  • @ChinmaySarupria Well, I'd like to find out if that excerpt from the Shiva Purana is the only place in Hindu scripture where something is described as superior to Sadashiva, or whether other scriptures also say the same thing. I'm not sure where I got the idea that Sadashiva is the supreme Brahman in the Shaivite worldview, but it's a frequently repeated assertion in many books and on this site. If someone posts an answer showing that Shaivite texts do not equate Sadashiva with the supreme Brahman, and that Sakshat Shiva/Parameshwara is superior to Sadashiva, that would be an adequate answer. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 03 '15 at 13:08
  • @Keshav What you have quoted above is also there is Yoga Vashista.

    Yoga Vasistha -- III:60 "A life time of Manu is but an hour and a half to Brahma; Brahma's life time is a day of Vishnu. Vishnu's life-span is Shiva's day. But to the sage who has overcome limitations, there is neither day nor night."

     – Naveen Nov 13 '15 at 00:53
  • @Naveen First of all, the Yoga Vasishta is widely considered to be a very late work, which was only attributed to Vasishta long after its (already late) date of creation. Second of all, yeah, it's not at all unusual for a Shaivite text to say that time moves more quickly for Vishnu than Brahma, more quickly for Shiva than Vishnu, etc. What is surprising is to have a something that's higher than the hierarchy of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Maheshwara, and Sadashiva. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 03:48
  • No,Shaivities does not believe in something greater than Sadashiva because they are the greater devotees of Lord Shiva and they worship other Gods very less. – Goltu Nov 11 '15 at 13:48
  • In Shiva and Shakti section of Introduction of Maha Nirvana Tantra, there is a reference to Para Shiva who is considered the supreme. From him comes Sada Shiva. http://sacred-texts.com/tantra/maha/maha00.htm – Pinakin Nov 27 '15 at 05:46
  • @ChinmaySarupria Thanks, but it seems that the Mahanirvana Tantra is a modern forgery: https://books.google.com/books?id=F1qJNIbbWA0C&lpg=PA277&dq=mahanirvana%20tantra&pg=PA277#v=onepage&q&f=false – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 27 '15 at 05:55
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    @KeshavSrinivasan What do u mean by saying Mahanirva Tantram is a modern forgery ?? And BTw you have misinterpreted the original verses. There is nothing called Sakshat Shiva. Tht's why its better to learn sanskrit before reading HIndu scriptures. – Rickross Apr 30 '17 at 11:36
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    @Rickross "What do u mean by saying Mahanirva Tantram is a modern forgery" I meant exactly what I said, there is a great deal of evidence that it's a forgery composed in the 18th or 19th century. In any case, if you think that I've misinterpreted the Shiva Purana chapter, you're welcome to post an answer. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 30 '17 at 14:57
  • I should post an answer to demonstrate ur ignorance? No i have better stuffs to do. I already pointed out where u fumbled. There is no one called Shakshata Shiva. @KeshavSrinivasan And keep ur rumors to urself. Although its not that too many people are reading these stuffs so won't make any difference anyways. – Rickross Apr 30 '17 at 15:02
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    @Rickross No, not an answer to demonstate my ignorance, an answer to correct my ignorance. In any case, I'm not spreading rumors, this is a well-documented thing. There's a great deal of evidence presented in numerous books concerning the Mahanirvana Tantra being a forgery if you do the research. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 30 '17 at 15:06
  • I know better than u about Mahanirvana so don't spread rumors. And, don't drag this topic. BTW, in both Shaiva and Shakta Agamas there r 2 tattvas that are higher than the Sadashiva tattva @KeshavSrinivasan – Rickross Apr 30 '17 at 15:09
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    @Rickross Again, I am not spreading rumors at all. If you have evidence or arguments that refute the case that it's a modern forgery, I'm happy to hear it. In any case, if you have information about what Tattvas are higher than Sadashiva, please post an answer. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 30 '17 at 15:12

3 Answers3

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Yes, Shaivites do believe in higher than SadaShiva also. Tirumantiram written by Tirumular is one of the oldest texts considered as authoritative by Shaiva Siddhantin. Tirumular is also one among 63 Nayanars and also among 18 Siddhars.

In his work Tirumantiram:

1) Tirumular states Ultimate state of Jiva is beyond SadaShiva also:

2374 The Ultimate State in Jiva's Journey

Beyond Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra,
Beyond Maheswara and Sadashiva,
Beyond Para Bindu and Para Nada,
Beyond Tattvas Thirty and Six, When all these are transcended, The Jiva is left alone with Shiva.

2) Tirumular states SadaShiva also has one Mala (impurity) called Anava:

2183 Number of Malas for the Five Gods

Five are the Malas For Brahma on the Lotus Bloom, Anava (Egoity) and the rest; (Anava, Maya, Karma, Mayeyam and Tirodayi) Four are the Malas for Vishnu; Anava and others (Mayeyam devoid) Three for Rudra, Anava and Others (Mayeyam and Tirodayi devoid); Two for Mahesa Anava and Karma; One alone for Sadashiva--Anava.

3) Tirumular states SadaShiva is born of Anava Shakti:

398: The Five Gods Were Born of Anava Sakti

Out of the union of Anava Sakti with Bindu The Five Gods were born. Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Sadasiva and Maheswara. For the five acts to perform-- Creation, preservation, destruction, obscuration and redemption-- As One from the other in causative succession; Born as they were of the Anava Sakti, Of Anava they were not rid.

400: The Five Gods Were the Primal Family for Five Duties to Perform

From out of Anava Sakti Arose the Primal Family; Sadasiva was the First Born; With Him came the brothers Maheswara, Rudra, Vishnu and Brahma-- Each to perform on heaven and earth His allotted function--Creation, Preservation and the rest.

4) Tirumular talks of various higher manifestations like Para Shiva, Paramam etc..

2285 Further Beyond Para Siva State is Paramam,

Paramparam and Para Maha Sivam Beyond Para Siva is Paramam ; Beyond Paramam is Paramparam; Thus are states ascending; From Para Siva Jagra, to Para Siva Svapna, and to Para Siva Sushupti The Jiva that has Para Siva become reaches The Finite Truth that is Para Nandi.

2286 Nine Manifestations of Para Shiva

Pertaining to Para Siva Are the (Para) Sakti, Para Nada and Para Bindu; And Sadasiva, Brahma, and Hari; Rudra the Lord of Devas, And Mahesvara to count.

Thus, SadaShiva is also called the manifestation of ParaShiva and there are also higher states than ParaShiva as described above. Maybe the term Sakshat Shiva used in the Shiva Purana corresponds to ParaShiva.

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    Wow, Shaiva Siddhanta is complicated. I knew about the 36 Tattvas of the Shaiva Agamas, including Anava Mala, but I wasn't aware of forms of Shiva above even Para Shiva. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 30 '17 at 03:42
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    Although mala concept existing in Shaiv Siddhanta, but completely different from Kashmiri Shaivism. Sadashiva in KS has no mala but the different self realization. Like object & subject polarised. Nice to read your answer. – ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ May 01 '17 at 05:21
  • @Rohit What do Kashmiri Shaivites believe about Mala? Also how many Tattvas do Kashmiri Shaivites recognize? – Keshav Srinivasan May 01 '17 at 17:30
  • In KS, only 3 mala explained. That too in Sakala beings ( beings from Māyā Tattva). And there are 36 tattvas. @KeshavSrinivasan – ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ May 01 '17 at 18:12
  • There's even beyond Paraparam. 2945: Transcendental Union Beyond Word and Speech As salt in water, in Lord I mixed, Transcending Param and Paraparam states, Beyond word and speech I in union merged; "How was It?"-you ask "It was It"-I say. So we can say we have no idea of Ultimate Shiva in Shaiva Siddhanta because It is unknowable but not beyond reach. – Starbeard Jan 01 '20 at 08:07
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See in the pic given. According to Kashmiri Shaivism, Time is the product of Māyā Tattva & it's Kankukas (Read here). Therefore, there is no time for the beings higher than Māyā Tattva so no relative relationship can be asserted among them regarding time. Time is felt/experienced by the beings from Māyā Tattva, not Sadashiva or Maheshvara ( = Shiva + Shakti).

Cosmology in Kashmiri Shaivism.

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To understand the supreme being and the process of creation started by the supreme being, one has to read the Shakteya Agamas. All the Hindu deities including the Trimurthis Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra coalesce into Moola Prakriti(distinct from Prakriti/Purusha) after Pralaya.

A detailed analysis of Saktheya Agamas is provided in the book attached in the following website.

http://agasthyayug.blogspot.com/

SadaShivam is Guru and corresponding Devi is Moksha Shakthi. My inference is Sadashiva is Ishwara.

SA Poorveshamapi Guru Kalena Anavachedat - Patanjali YogaSutras Samadhi Pada 26

Translation: Iswara is Guru (Preceptor) to the most ancient, and He surpasses Time, not being subject to Time.

The position of Sadashivam in the heirarchy is given below (refer chapter XVIII in the book)

enter image description here

I am not sure about Shakshat Shiva. It could be Aham Sathyam(Aham of Moola Prakriti), mentioned in the book.

Keshav Srinivasan
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Naveen
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    First of all, my question is about Shaivites, not Shaktas; Shaktas may give Sadashiva a lower place (as Shaivites view Mahavishnu), but Shaivites might put him higher. Second of all, where did you get the chart? I looked in chapter 18, and I only saw three charts, this one, this one, and this one – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 03:36
  • By the way, I think in the Shaivite hierarchy of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Maheshwara and Sadashiva (as opposed to whatever the Shakta hierarchy is), the Ishwara of the Yoga school would be equated with Maheshwara, not Sadashiva; see this answer. I'm not sure if there's room for a Maheshwara figure in the Shakta scheme. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 03:41
  • This is not the traditional Shakta school that we usually hear of. The nature of these Agamic revelations are described in the chapter on the Shakteya Agamas. I just realized that the above picture is missing from the image PDF. The searchable PDF was not uploaded because the Sanskrit and Tamil fonts did not be convert properly from word doc to PDF. I can pm you the searchable PDF(with garbled sanskrit and tamil) where the above image can be found. – Naveen Nov 13 '15 at 03:50
  • Well, this does site doesn't have a pm feature, but you can give me the link in chat, or my email address is on my profile page. I'm not sure what you mean it being different from the traditional Shakta school. The traditional Shakta school is based on the Shakta Agamas. So is this based on something other than the Shakta Agamas? – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 03:54
  • The ultimate supreme being is named as Atma, and the qualifier used is 'Unknowable'. – Naveen Nov 13 '15 at 03:54
  • "The ultimate supreme being is named as Atma, and the qualifier used is 'Unknowable'" Well, I certainly agree that a Shaivite of an Advaitic bent would say that the Atma is the highest supreme being (since the Atma would be equal to Nirguna Brahman), but that doesn't really address my question of what the hierarchy of Shiva corresponds to. Am I correct in my understanding that Maheshwara and Sadashiva correspond to Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman, or is Saguna Brahman equated with Sadashiva, and Nirguna Brahman, higher than that, et. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 03:58
  • Nirguna Brahm is described as, "For creation, the Nirguna Brahm transforms itself as Atma" impersonal/unqualified/infinite. Not sure about Saguna Brahm. It could be qualified Brahm or Ishwara. I could not see your email in your profile and chat only allows images. – Naveen Nov 13 '15 at 04:10
  • Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me that a Shaivite of an Advaitin bent would say Nirguna Brahman is supreme. I just want to know how that relates to the hierarchy of five. And yeah, Saguna Brahman, Ishwara, and qualified Brahman are all different ways to refer to the same thing. But again, the question is how that relates to the hierarchy of five. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 04:11
  • Gotit. You can delete the above message if you want to. Each of these names you have mentioned have distinct meanings attached to them and the interrelationships are complicated to understand. Deep contemplation is required. I myself have not understood it properly despite several discussion with the author. Hierarchy of five as in? I might have missed something. – Naveen Nov 13 '15 at 04:20
  • The Shaivite hierarchy of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Maheshwara, and Sadashiva. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 04:26
  • From what was taught to me, Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra representing the three Kalas with Shiva encompassing all three. Not sure if there is distinction between Maheshwara and Shiva. Some of these names could be eulogies and some have definite/distinct meanings - like the difference between Sivam, ParamaShivam, SadaShivam. – Naveen Nov 13 '15 at 04:33
  • By the way, I hope you understand that terms like Nirguna Brahman, Atma, Saguna Brahman, etc. are general Vedantic terms which are common to pretty much all Hindus. On the other hand, terms like Sadashiva, Maheshwara, etc. are terms that are exclusive to the Shaiva Agamas (and perhaps the Shakta Agamas). So the purpose of my question is to find the relation between Vedanta and the worldview of the Shaiva Agamas. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 04:35
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    Well, at least the Shaiva Agamas make a very clear distinction between Rudra, Maheshwara, and Sadashiva. See also the poems of the Nayanar Tirumular: https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/tirumantiram And see this answer: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/8993/36. And this excellent article from the magazine Hinduism Today: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=5286 – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 04:38
  • There is definitely a relationship/parallels between Vedanta and the Agamas, but I only have partial clarity of it. On the Vedanta side, The book contains an exposition on Mandukya Upanishad. It can be studied in parallel with the Agamas and Patanjali Yoga sutras to understand the relation/distinctions stated above. – Naveen Nov 13 '15 at 04:55
  • Well, I don't even know where the book is getting its information from, so I'm skeptical of its claims. In any case, a satisfactory answer to my question should address 1) What is the relation between the Shaivite terms Sadashiva and Maheshwara on the one hand, and Nirguna Saguna Brahman on the other hand, and 2) Is there anything higher than Sadashiva from the point of view of the Shaiva Agamas – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 04:59
  • As far as the Shakta Agama chapter you're referring to, are you talking about this: http://i.imgur.com/FUbk1VV.jpg That chapter doesn't say anything surprising - it's just talking about the standard Shakta Agamas that all Shaktas follow. So we are just talking about standard, run-of-the-mill Shaktas here. And my question is about Shaivites, not Shaktas. – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 13 '15 at 05:08
  • By the way, you may be interested in this question I just posted, relating to the Shakta system: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/9471/36 – Keshav Srinivasan Nov 14 '15 at 03:07