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As per Sargas 15-17 of Srimad Ramayana, after Lord Vishnu agreed to take birth as a son of King Dasaratha, Lord Brahma ordered as follows:

(The Gods become progenitors of Vanara heroes at the dictate of Brahma to come to the aid of Sri Rama in annihilating Ravana.)

सत्य संधस्य वीरस्य सर्वेषाम् नो हितैषिणः |
विष्णोः सहायान् बलिनः सृजध्वम् काम रूपिणः || (Bala Kanda, Sarga 17, Shloka 2)

Let mighty and guise changing helpmates be procreated to that truth abiding and valorous Vishnu who is the well-wisher of all of us.

वानरेन्द्रम् महेन्द्र आभम् इन्द्रः वालिनम् आत्मजम् |
सुग्रीवम् जनयामास तपनः तपताम् वरः || (Bala Kanda, Sarga 17, Shloka 10)

Indra procreated the lord of vanaras, namely Vali, who by his physique is like Mt. Mahendra, and the highest humidifier among all the humidifiers, namely the Sun, procreated Sugreeva.

Within 1 (one) year Sri Rama was born. So, Vali, Sugreeva, Sri Hanuma and Sri Rama should be more or less of the same age.

However, other descriptions in Srimad Ramayana do not corroborate the above narration.

  1. Nowhere in Ramayana, the ages of Vali and Sugreeva are mentioned.

  2. Vali never assisted Sri Rama in the annihilation of Ravana, as per Srimad Ramayana.

  3. Vali had a severe fight with a demon named Dhundhubi. When Vali killed that demon and hurled the dead body of Dhundhubi, it fell in Sage Matanga's hermitage. Sage Matanga cursed him to the effect that if he or his friends enter the surroundings of his ashram they will fall dead. This incident indicates that Vali was a grown up person at that time, i.e., around 20 years at the minimum and Sage Matanga was alive.

  4. After the demise of Sage Matanga at an old age, the disciples of Sage Matanga lived in that Ashram. Sabari, a female attendant to those disciples, used to serve them with devotion.

  5. By the time Sri Rama reached Chitrakoota, his age was only around 25 years. And at the same time, the disciples of Sage Matanga, who are very old, attained heaven.

चित्रकूटम् त्वयि प्राप्ते विमानैः अतुल प्रभैः |
इतः ते दिवम् आरूढा यान् अहम् पर्यचारिषम् || (Aranya Kanda, Sarga 74, Shloka 14)

Divine aircrafts of unequalled refulgence have lifted those disciples of Sage Matanga in whose tendance I was, to welkin on your arriving at Chitrakuta

  1. That means a considerable period of time, between the Dhundhubi incident and the time when the disciples of Sage Matanga attained heaven, i.e, a minimum period of 40 to 50 years must have elapsed and Vali might be 60-70 years old when Sri Rama reached Chitrakoota. By the time he reached Kishkinda he was 38 years old and Vali might be 80-85 years old.

  2. By the time Sri Rama reached Kishkinda, Vali had a son by name Angadha, who was a grown up person.

Hence, in my view, Lord Brahma ordering the Devatas to procreate vanaras, was a prakshipta, an insertion made at a later date.

Am I right?

Srimannarayana K V
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    Why exactly must there be a long time between the death of Matanga and the death of Matanga's disciples? Shabari could have been serving the Ashram even when Matanga was still alive. – Keshav Srinivasan Oct 16 '15 at 14:53
  • @KeshavSrinivasan: Ramayana was silent on the time gap. Srimad Ramayana did not mention about Sabari serving even the Sage Maatanga. She was described to be serving the disciples of Sage Maatanga. – Srimannarayana K V Oct 16 '15 at 15:01
  • Shabari could have easily served Matanga's disciples while Matanga's was still alive. It was not at all unusual for a younger disciple of a guru to serve the elder disciples, and for the elder disciples to serve the guru. So I don't think there's any need to assume a period of 40-50 years. – Keshav Srinivasan Oct 16 '15 at 15:16
  • In the absence of specific mention about Sabari in the story of Sage Matanga, I think we cannot think in that way. Even Sabari did not mention about her association with Sage Maatanga. – Srimannarayana K V Oct 16 '15 at 16:00
  • Well, we have absolutely no information in the Aranya Kanda on whether Matanga was alive or dead when Shabari was serving the disciples of Matanga, and the Puranas make clear that Matanga was alive. And we have the information in the Bala Kanda that Vali and Rama were of equal age. So unless we have good reason to believe that Matanga was dead, there's no reason to assume anything other than that he was alive. – Keshav Srinivasan Oct 16 '15 at 16:15
  • Well, as I already mentioned earlier, I do not believe the major part of Puranas, which contain many interpolations. So I stick to Srimad Ramayana of Valmiki, as the authoritative text on Ramayana. – Srimannarayana K V Oct 16 '15 at 16:19
  • OK, but we only need to suppose that a passage in the Ramayana is an interpolation if we find an actual contradiction between two statements in the Ramayana. If we see a statement that Matanga was dead, that would be one thing. But if we see a statement that Vali and Rama were of the same age, and we don't find any statement was about Matanga being dead, then we have absolutely no reason to suppose that he was dead. So based on the statement in the Bala Kanda, we should assume that Matanga was alive until we find a statement that says otherwise. – Keshav Srinivasan Oct 16 '15 at 16:52
  • I am not a Sanskrit scholar, so I cannot insert such a statement in Ramayana now, to prove my point. I already said Sage Valmiki did not mention about that. Another contradiction that I already mentioned was, if Lord Brahma's order is true (to procreate vanaras to assist Sri Rama), then Vali should have assisted Sri Rama. He did not. I leave it to your discretion whether to agree or disagree with my opinion. – Srimannarayana K V Oct 16 '15 at 23:45
  • Yeah, when Valmiki doesn't address something one way or another, we should assume that there's no contradiction until we find reason to believe otherwise. Now when Brahma gave the order to the gods to procreate with Vanara women, he gave the order so that Rama would have a large pool of potential helpers who would be powerful enough to fight Rakshasas. It doesn't mean that every single Vanara would necessarily help Rama fight Rakshasas. It's not like the gods told their Vanara children "Go help Rama." They just knew that that's what would eventually happen. – Keshav Srinivasan Oct 16 '15 at 23:54
  • And Vali's birth did ultimately help Rama - if Vali had not banished Sugriva, Rama would not have been able to help Sugriva and thus the Vanaras wouldn't have helped Rama rescue Sita. So Indra did a very good thing in giving birth to Vali. – Keshav Srinivasan Oct 16 '15 at 23:55
  • Why this obsession with excavating "insertions" where there are none? Why can't the devatas be born and be ready for Rama? They don't have to be all born on charitra suddha navami, in punarvasu Nakshatra. Vali was not the same age as Rama. –  Oct 17 '15 at 10:06
  • "Within 1 (one) year Sri Rama was born."-- how you concluded this? how you concluded this.. @srimannarayanakv – YDS Jun 11 '19 at 17:43
  • @sv.:Your statement that "Vanaras are different from Human beings, they can age differently, their life cycle (procreation) and life span could be totally different than humans." may not be correct. How can you say this? – Srimannarayana K V Jun 12 '19 at 05:15
  • @YDS: please read 8 to 11 slokas in 18th Sarga of bala kanda of Ramayana. It was stated " On completion of the ritual, six seasons have passed by; then in the twelfth month, i.e., in chaitra mAsa ......Queen Kausalya gave birth to a son "https://www.valmikiramayan.net/utf8/baala/sarga18/bala_18_frame.htm – Srimannarayana K V Jun 12 '19 at 05:19
  • @srimannarayanakv your conclusion doesn't seem to be correct..that's in respect of the completion of yajna and not after the conversation of Brahma and Vishnu..Hanuman was of matured age when Sugriva/Bali born (as per Uttar kanda).. and Rama was even not born when Sugriva became king after Vali didn't return from the cave for long time, that's what Tara says in Padma purana..but Padma purana discusses 2 ramayanas of diff kalpas..so need to check on that more preciously.. – YDS Jun 12 '19 at 06:09
  • @YDS: My inferences were drawn based on Valmiki Ramayana only. I do not regard the Puranas or Uttara Kanda as authentic. According to my analysis Uttara kanda is an interpolated story. – Srimannarayana K V Jun 12 '19 at 07:29
  • What is your main question, this - "Lord Brahma ordering the Devatas to procreate vanaras, was a prakshipta, an insertion made at a later date. Am I right?" - or this - "Were Vali and Sri Rama of same age?" – Say No To Censorship Aug 11 '20 at 05:22
  • @sv. : Both should be read together as the 2nd one gets negated if the 1st one is accepted :-) – Srimannarayana K V Aug 11 '20 at 07:49
  • To prevent answers like this one, I think you want to change the title to: "How could Vali and Rama be of the same age? Is Lord Brahma ordering Devatas to procreate vanaras, an interpolation?" :-) – Say No To Censorship Aug 11 '20 at 21:41
  • Will not the title be too lengthy?:-) @sv. – Srimannarayana K V Aug 12 '20 at 00:53

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