I'm confused even after reading Medhatithis commentary on this verse as it (in in my opinion) allows us to reject the Dharmashastras and I'm not sure if that is true so if anyone could please clear this doubt of mine I would be very thankful of that.
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One should renounce pursuit of wealth (artha) and pleasure kama if they conflict with dharma and even dharma if it results in future unhappiness or arouses people’s indignation. (Manu 4:176) - yes - on the surface it looks like Manu is advocating abandoning dharma if it would cause unhappiness @rajam – S K Jul 24 '23 at 16:45
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@SK so the interpretation that I can reject what's in it is true? – Rajam Jul 24 '23 at 16:50
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I cannot find any other interpretation apart from "abandon dharma if following it would cause you unhappiness or cause indignation among your fellow citizens @rajam – S K Jul 24 '23 at 16:56
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@SK well thats ok. – Rajam Jul 24 '23 at 16:57
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2ofcourse not. if that was the case why even bother with other verses. – Artist Formerly Known As CSD Jul 26 '23 at 05:26
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@Carmensandiego if so then can you give me the reason why such is true? – Rajam Jul 26 '23 at 09:12
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You need to read the order of precedence mentioned in Manusmriti 2.12. Then 4.176 will make sense – Artist Formerly Known As CSD Jul 27 '23 at 04:17
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@Carmensandiego could you please make an answer explaining the meaning? – Rajam Jul 27 '23 at 04:18
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Will try to compose an answer over the weekend – Artist Formerly Known As CSD Jul 27 '23 at 05:32
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@Carmensandiego thanks – Rajam Jul 27 '23 at 06:46
2 Answers
Short Answer: No, the verse or the commentary does not advocate rejection of Dharmashastras. As mentioned in my comment if such was the case then why bother with thousands of other verses.
Long Answer: Taking a verse in isolation to come up with contrived, self-serving interpretation has become the hallmark of the current so-called Hindu renaissance made popular by new-age Gurus and now adopted by keyboard warriors. A similar approach is also used by detractors of Hinduism to push forth their nefarious agenda. They copy-paste selective verses from Dharmashastras to show Hinduism in bad light.
But we don't even need to goto Manusmriti, as even popular texts are not spared. One verse from Srimad Bhagvad Gita used time and again by such folks is 18.63
इति ते ज्ञानमाख्यातं गुह्याद्गुह्यतरं मया | विमृश्यैतदशेषेण यथेच्छसि तथा कुरु || 63||
iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā vimṛiśhyaitad aśheṣheṇa yathechchhasi tathā kuru
BG 18.63: Thus, I have explained to you this knowledge that is more secret than all secrets. Ponder over it deeply, and then do as you wish.
As per this verse which also happens to be coming pretty much at the end of the discourse we can ignore everything preceding this verse, do what we feel like and that will be considered dharmic. What this is implying is that Lord Krishna took the efforts to explain the duties,karma, dharma etc. to Arjuna only to have latter do things as per his whims and fancies
Coming to MS 4.176, this is what the verse says
परित्यजेदर्थकामौ यौ स्यातां धर्मवर्जितौ । धर्मं चाप्यसुखोदर्कं लोकसङ्क्रुष्टमेव च ॥ १७६ ॥
parityajedarthakāmau yau syātāṃ dharmavarjitau | dharmaṃ cāpyasukhodarkaṃ lokasaṅkruṣṭameva ca || 176 ||
He shall, avoid such wealth and pleasures as are opposed to righteousness, as also righteousness if it be conducive to unhappiness, or disapproved by the people.—(176)
This is pretty much similar to BG 18.63 when read in isolation. It is pretty much asking the individual to indulge in hedonistic pursuits even at the cost of righteousness. But that is not the case.
The thumb rule in interpreting verse(s) from a text is that it should not contradict other verses in the same text. One does not read a section of the constitution/law-book and extrapolate it to encompass the entire constitution/law. For e.g. Article 19 of Indian constitution allows one to reside in any part of the country. Does it mean that I can go and start residing in a residence not owned by me because I fancy it ? That would in violation of property laws. Same approach is to be adopted here. In case of MS 4.176 it is to be read in conjunction with MS 2.12 amongst other verses
वेदः स्मृतिः सदाचारः स्वस्य च प्रियमात्मनः । एतच्चतुर्विधं प्राहुः साक्षाद् धर्मस्य लक्षणम् ॥ १२ ॥
vedaḥ smṛtiḥ sadācāraḥ svasya ca priyamātmanaḥ | etaccaturvidhaṃ prāhuḥ sākṣād dharmasya lakṣaṇam || 12 ||
The Veda, the Smṛti, the Practice of cultured Men, and what is agreeable to oneself—these directly constitute the fourfold means of knowing Dharma.—(12)
Thus the hierarchical epistemology is that Vedas are at the top i.e. ultimate source of truth. If for some reason one can't find the answer in Vedas (this is not same as Vedas not having the answer), then look at Smritis. If still not found then follow the practice of cultured, learned (learned in Vedas not secular education) men in your society and if still don't have the answer then look inwards.
So as you can see conscience is the last resort. In 4.176, Medhatithi mentions slaughter of the bull is permitted under special conditions. But let alone ordinary men not even learned men are well versed with these conditions, so it is better to avoid slaughtering of the bull altogether lest one incurs the sin of not conducting it as per prescribed methods, circumstances etc. On the same lines he talks about deprecation of Niyoga
Long story short, 4.176 does not permit overriding of Vedas or Smritis. It says it is better to err on side of caution lest you incur a sin of doing certain acts in non-permissible manner
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Yes, I agree people are quick to judge first read the whole scripture, then pick what it may be. In my opinion no Dharmashastra is divine word however due to the ability to amend them. – Haridasa Jan 19 '24 at 02:29
Yes, your interpretation of Manu 4.176 is right. I am giving below a broader discussion of how Hindu scripture should be interpreted.
A Hindu should do what he thinks is right and not blindly follow ancient texts. You should remember that Hinduism has no centralized organization to check errors in scriptures. Ancient Christians had the Church to select the texts that were considered to be correct and dump texts that did not reflect Christian teaching. Similarly one of the righteous Caliphs, companion of the Prophet, Uthman burnt down all variants of the Koran and commissioned a scholar to write the most authoritative version of it. Since Hindus do not have any such organization they have to look at scripture to see what it says about this issue. Hindu scriptures ask Hindus to do internal consistency checks before accepting any scriptural statement as valid. Hindu scriptural verse must survive three checks in order to be acceptable.
Reason
Even the words heard from an ignorant person, if in themselves they be fraught with sense, come to be regarded as pious and wise. In days of old, Usanas said unto the Daityas this truth, which should remove all doubts, that scriptures are no scriptures if they cannot stand the test of reason.
Mahabharata Shanti Parva Section CXLII
Acharya Shankara says:
The appeal to the infallibility of the Vedic injunction is misconceived. The infallibility in question refers only to the unseen forces or apurva, and is admissible only in regards to matters not confined to the sphere of direct perceptions, etc ... Even a hundred statements of sruti to the effect that fire is cold and non-luminous won't prove valid. If it does make such a statement, its import will have to be interpreted differently. Otherwise, validity won't attach to it. Nothing in conflict with the means of valid cognition or with its own statements may be imputed to sruti.
REF: Srimad Bhagavad Gita Bhasya 18.66 of Sri Sankaracarya translation by Dr. A. G. Krishna Warrier
Non-discrimination
If a holy act is against the interest of other members of the society, it should not be practiced. It is Dharma which is the source of Artha and even of Kama.
Kurma Purana I.2.54
If a scriptural verse does advocate discrimination then don't follow that verse.
Conscience
- The whole Veda is the (first) source of the sacred law, next the tradition and the virtuous conduct of those who know the (Veda further), also the customs of holy men, and (finally) self-satisfaction.
Manu Smriti II.6
Bhishma said, ‘He is said to be conversant with duty who knows duty as depending on four foundations.’
[four foundations, i.e., as laid down in the Vedas; as laid down in the Smritis; as sanctioned by ancient usage and customs; and as approved by the heart or one’s own conscience.]
Mahabharata, Santi Parva, Section CXXXII
Hindu scripture can’t override reason and conscience. Nor can Hindu scripture be used to discriminate against a community.
The Smriti texts and the Puranas that we have today reflect the attitude of people who lived many centuries ago. Most of these texts have been revised many times. These texts teach us to adapt these teachings to modern times and in fact discard any teaching that seems obsolete today..
However, discard the desire (kama) and material wealth (artha) if contrary to Dharma; as also, any usage or custom or rules regarded as source of Dharma if at any time they were to lead to unhappiness or arouse people's indignation.
(Manu Smriti 4.176)
A Hindu should only take the essential teachings and not be a fundamentalist.
Essential Teachings
An intelligent man should seek the essential teachings of all scriptural texts of varying importance, just as a honey-bee sucks the essence of all flowers.
Srimad Bhagavata Purana XI.8.10
UPDATE
It has been stated that the meaning of the verses posted by me might change if the context is given. So I am posting the contexts of the Mahabharata quote on reason and the Kurma Purana quote. I will leave it to the reader to decide if the meaning of the quotes posted by me changes with the context.
Mahabharata quote:
SECTION CXLII "Yudhishthira said, 'If that which is so horrible and which like falsehood should never be an object of regard, be cited (as duty), then what act is there from which I should forbear? Why also should not robbers then be respected? I am stupefied! My heart is pained! All the ties that bind me to morality are loosened! I cannot tranquillise my mind and venture to act in the way suggested by you.'
"Bhishma said, 'I do not instruct thee in respect of duty, taught by what I have heard from the Vedas alone. What I have told thee is the result of wisdom and experience. This is the honey that the learned have gathered. Kings should gather wisdom from various sources. One cannot accomplish his course through the world with the aid of a morality that is one-sided. Duty must spring from the understanding; and the practices of those that are good should always be ascertained, O son of Kuru! Attend to these words of mine. Only kings that are possessed of superior intelligence can rule, expecting victory. A king should provide for the observance of morality by the aid of his understanding and guided by knowledge derived from various sources. The duties of a king can never be discharged by rules drawn from a morality that is one-sided. A weak-minded king can never display wisdom (in the discharge of his duties) in consequence of his not having drawn any wisdom from the examples before him. Righteousness sometimes takes the shape of unrighteousness. The latter also sometimes takes the shape of the former. He who does not know this, becomes confounded when confronted by an actual instance of the kind. Before the occasion comes, one should, O Bharata, comprehend the circumstances under which righteousness and its reverse become confused. Having acquired this knowledge, a wise king should, when the occasion comes, act accordingly, aided by his judgment. The acts he does at such a time are misunderstood by ordinary people. Some persons are possessed of true knowledge. Some persons have false knowledge. Truly ascertaining the nature of each kind of knowledge, a wise king derives knowledge from them that are regarded as good. They that are really breakers of morality find fault with the scriptures. They that have themselves no wealth proclaim the inconsistencies of the treatises on the acquisition of wealth. Those who seek to acquire knowledge for the object only of carrying their sustenance by it, O king, are sinful besides being enemies of morality. Wicked men, of immature understandings, can never know things truly, even as persons unconversant with scriptures are unable in all their acts to be guided by reason. With eyes directed to the faults of the scriptures, they decry the scriptures. Even if they understand the true meaning of the scriptures, they are still in the habit of proclaiming that scriptural injunctions are unsound. Such men, by decrying the knowledge of others proclaim the superiority of their own knowledge. They have words for their weapons and words for their arrows and speak as if they are real masters of their sciences. Know, O Bharata, that they are traders in learning and Rakshasas among men. By the aid of mere pretexts they cast off that morality which has been established by good and wise men. It has been heard by us that the texts of morality are not to be understood by either discussion or one's own intelligence. Indra. himself has said that this is the opinion of the sage Vrihaspati. Some are of opinion that no scriptural text has been laid down without a reason. Others again, even if they properly understand the scriptures, never act according to them. One class of wise men declare that morality is nothing else than the approved course of the world. The man of true knowledge should find out for himself the morality laid down for the good. If even a wise man speaks of morality under the influence of wrath or confusion of understanding or ignorance, his deliverances go for nothing. Discourses on morality made with the aid of an intelligence that is derived from the true letter and spirit of the scriptures, are worthy of praise and not those which are made with the help of anything else. Even the words heard from an ignorant person, if in themselves they be fraught with sense, come to be regarded as pious and wise. In days of old, Usanas said unto the Daityas this truth, which should remove all doubts, that scriptures are no scriptures if they cannot stand the test of reason. The possession or absence of knowledge that is mixed with doubts is the same thing. It behoves thee to drive off such knowledge after tearing it up by the roots. He who does not listen to these words of mine is to be regarded as one that has suffered himself to be misled.
Mahabharata Santi Parva Section CXLII
Kurma Purana Quote:
Kuram Purana I.2.47b-56a
Another objection is that this kind of thinking would lead to mayhem as criminals think that doing crime is the right thing.
This is an inane objection. There are courts and police to take care of criminals. It doesn't matter what they think.
A further objection is 'unless you cite a CORE subset of Hinduism that ALL Hindus must follow - Manusmriti 4.176 essentially throws Hinduism out of the window (otherwise, everybody is free to choose the subset he/she would observe)'
Manu Smriti 4.176 throws Hinduism out of the window only if you think Hinduism is only customs and traditions. Hinduism is more than customs and traditions. The spiritual core of Hinduism talked by the great Acharyas will survive Manu Smriti 4.176.
Any way laws like SC/St (prevention of atrocities) act which criminalize acts against these people (which are supported by some Smritis) already act according to the spirit of the advice of Manu Smriti 4.176.
You may be curious as to what kind of atrocities have been advocated by some Smritis. There is a widespread belief that Manu Smriti asks molten lead poured into ears of a Sudra. That is not true although such a line in there in another Smriti. Manu Smriti also has some atrocity statements.
A once-born man (a Sudra), who insults a twice-born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin.
Manu Smriti 8.270
Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a crow, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra;
Manu Smriti 11.132
Basically a Sudra has the same status as a cat etc.
Both Gandhi and Vivekananda thought of the various Smritis including Manu Smriti as a mixture of good and bad.
The Smritis and the Puranas are productions of men of limited intelligence and are full of fallacies, errors, the feelings of class and malice. Only parts of them breathing broadness of spirit and love are acceptable, the rest are to be rejected. The Upanishads and the Gita are the true scriptures.
The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda/Volume 6/Epistles - Second Series/CXXIV Sir
Gandhi on hearing the news about the burning of Manu Smriti by Ambedkar in 1927 did not react negatively to it.
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1I understand your main message of not being bookish person, however I do have some questions. 1) Self satisfaction - It is virtually impossible to satisfy every single person of the society, does that mean that if a rule doesn't satisfy a single person is, should that rule be discarded ? Should a rule formulated by small group of scholars be discarded if a majority consisting of less experienced people are dissatisfied with it ? 2) Importance of reason - Firstly whose reasoning should we follow ? Even criminals can provide reasons in their defence, should we consider that sort of reason valid? – অনু Jul 25 '23 at 07:47
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2Secondly, if we are to give absolute primacy of reason, then it indirectly supports materialism & fatalism. Even the very concept of religion can come under doubt due to reason. – অনু Jul 25 '23 at 08:03
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3"A Hindu should do what he thinks is right and not blindly follow ancient texts." -- this type of thinking can create mayhem as criminals always think doing crime is the right thing. – Rickross Jul 25 '23 at 09:27
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1@অনু I understand you are unhappy with the quotes I posted. The quotes I posted are in Hindu scripture. You should ask the authors of Hindu scripture why they wrote these things. I am merely the messenger. Why do you think they wrote these things? – Pradip Gangopadhyay Jul 25 '23 at 10:25
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2In Ramayana, Jabali tries to persuade Rama come back from exile by using Charvaka doctrine (rationalism & amoralism). In Padma Purana, there is a section which paraphrases Jaina caricature of Hindu deities spoken by Brihaspati in an attempt to weaken the Asuras by making them resort to heresy. In Devibhagavata, Brihaspati, while espounding Jaina doctrines, state that Brahmins created the Vedic rituals to satisfy their cravings for flesh. If somebody quotes such unorthodox lines without proper context as words of scripture, then it is bound to elicit a reaction. – অনু Jul 25 '23 at 10:47
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The context argument while good is outdated. Why don't you post the context of the Manu Smriti 4.176 so that all of us can learn? As far as I can see there is no special context for Manu Smriti 4.176. I am writing this since you have carefully avoided mentioning the context of the scriptural quotations posted by me and gone off at a tangent. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Jul 25 '23 at 11:00
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unless you cite a CORE subset of Hinduism that ALL Hindus must follow - Manusmriti 4.176 essentially throws Hinduism out of the window (otherwise, everybody is free to choose the subset he/she would observe) @Pradip Gangopadhyay – S K Jul 25 '23 at 11:12
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1Manu Smriti 4.176 throws Hinduism out of the window only if you think Hinduism is only customs and traditions. Hinduism is more than customs and traditions. The spiritual core of Hinduism talked by the great Acharyas will survive Manu Smriti 4.176. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Jul 26 '23 at 04:26
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1What are you talking about @PradipGangopadhyay? Are you suggesting that MS advocates violence against SC/ST? All it says is unequal treatment for unequal people. – Artist Formerly Known As CSD Jul 27 '23 at 04:10
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I think @Carmensandiego you didn't understand me. I wrote that the sc/st act that criminalizes atrocities against them is in agreement with the spirit of the advice given in Manu Smriti 4.176. I did write that some smritis support violence. There is a Smriti, not MS, that asks molten tin or lead to be poured down the ears of some people. However, MS also recommends violence against Sudras. Reread my post to know about them. I do agree with you that I have learnt nothing from HSE in all these years. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Jul 28 '23 at 04:16
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2@PradipGangopadhyay if haven't learnt anything from here, then why are you even here? – Rajam Jul 28 '23 at 04:27
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Hope does not die. I am always hoping that I will come across a gem at some point. I suggest attending a course offered by a Swami. I attended a course on Pancadasi by Swami Sarvadevananda many decades ago. One's understanding is deepened by attending such a course. One can never have such deep understanding by just reading web site posts. I also attended 750 lectures by Ramakrishna and other Swamis and that was also very helpful. My interest in Hindu scripture is to learn how to make spiritual progress and not simply to know some detail. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Jul 28 '23 at 05:35
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3@PradipGangopadhyay - MS also says brahmin who drinks alcohol must hsvr red hot wine poured in him till he is burnt to death. No such punishment for shudras. So does it mean MS is anti-brahmin? Your use of phrase "recommendation of violence" shows your lack of understanding. – Artist Formerly Known As CSD Jul 28 '23 at 07:43
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3@PradipGangopadhyay You completely misunderstood quotes from these Shastras and just supporting what you "feel as correct" by quoting them..Tarka must be "Shastra Sammata tarka"not what me or you or anyone else feels logical..Our logics change over time.logics at age of 9 are not same as logics at age of 30.. trying to interpret Rishis Vakyas with our "changing logic" is flaw. You should also read what Traditional Acharyas say about these quotes.. Cutting tongue doesn't mean literally cutting, it means make his mouth shut with arguments..Same punishment is suggested for Guru ninda too.. (1/n) – The Destroyer Jul 28 '23 at 08:36
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4@PradipGangopadhyay i think you are completely unaware of Sampradayic understanding. Even Acharyas from many Sampradayas commented on that molten lead verses and Sudras knowing meaning of Vedas.. Please go through them first rather than trying to express what you feel as correct by quoting statements from scriptures without proper context.. If one has to believe in shastras, they should believe all.. if they don't find something logical, they should do Sadhana and expand awareness.. An Athiest will not accept anything in shastras.. (2/n) – The Destroyer Jul 28 '23 at 08:40
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6@PradipGangopadhyay and what is difference between Atheists and others if they selectively believe what they feel logical? how can you prove indra exists with logic? just we because we can't see with physical eyes, can we say Indra doesn't exist and Veda mantras are wrong? Kavyakantha Ganapati Muni got Sakshatkara of Indra and verified it..this should be how we should verify shastras not by superficial intellect. Even Smritis came from veda and a Yogi in deep tapas can map every smriti to Veda if he wants... Scriptures themselves never support this tarka. (3/n) – The Destroyer Jul 28 '23 at 08:46
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2No. If Manu says - "Listen to these 3 - shastras, elders, conscience." - it is IN THAT ORDER. meaning, if previous one is unavailable, ONLY THEN, listen to current one. meaning, when there is conflict, always choose the higher one in that list. Charvakas seem to like the interpretation , who give their own interpreted meaning as - 'listen to ANY of the 3 per your convenience' . @TheDestroyer – ram Jul 29 '23 at 22:54
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@TheDestroyer the issue is the word feel we can feel anything is logical or moral that stuffs up for change. Dharma is based on the survival of a society and nothing else and is based on Vedic culture. I agree this answer isn't good. – Haridasa Feb 19 '24 at 18:53
