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For the universe to repeat exactly, don’t the person’s thoughts & emotions have to repeat exactly ?

Reading and re-reading numerous past posts and comments on here by Swami Vishwananda & IAmMilind, I get that the universe repeats exactly in the time cycles. That’s the only way infinitely repeating universe can exist, is if it’s the exact same. Different jivas filling slots and positions in Vivekanand’s ferris wheel universe.

But then our emotions and thoughts have to be the exact same too right ?

So there is no free will in how we act and what we do but also there is no free will with our thoughts and feelings ?

Could someone clarify this for me ?

I’m at the point of losing sleep over trying to understand this, shouting in the shower and everything Losing my mind guys hahaha:D

Edit : Embarrassing to admit, but I have also spent tons of time googling to try and understand this. There is so much contradictory information out there on time cycles and free will in Hinduism. I’m even more confused after so many hours of trying to look this up Someone plz help

Edit : Ok modifying/bounty stuffs too, any input or thoughts or even just comments with your views are greatly appreciated, thx By the way for writing an answer, I don’t require strict answer from Hindu texts. Answers from text commentaries or acharyas types (blogs, lectures, Yootoobz vids or such are fine too, I mean, at this point I’ll accept a TikTok if it has the pertinent info hehe:D I just really wanna understand this, so yeah, thx :)

veganenvironmentalist
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    what about infinity? infinite time (samsara), eternal return is limit, eternal is now, no choice to make – blue_ego Jan 07 '23 at 11:21
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    free-will is autonomy of will, a will that is dual of matter, not beneath matter, a metaphysical necessity, therefore, mind is free to choose. this is Kant's categorical imperative – blue_ego Jan 07 '23 at 11:27
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    still choosing, but free from choice dilemma. why not free? greed and lust... – blue_ego Jan 07 '23 at 11:30
  • I hope I will figure this out Cause if this is not understood properly then all the other logics ideas on top of it are not gonna be correct either imo – veganenvironmentalist Jan 07 '23 at 15:43
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    choosing (a or b) within choice is free, but choice(s) still have constraint (a and b) of world at large – blue_ego Jan 07 '23 at 15:55
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    Could u pls link which answers you have read on the stackexchange website in the Qn and formulated an opinion? – Rāmachandra Jan 08 '23 at 06:17
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    There are a large number of posts on here talking about time cycles, divine will, free will, moksh, is it permanent state, are there infinite number of souls. I don’t agree w/ everything that Swami Vishwananda & iammilind have said, but I agree with large portions of what they posted. Swami Vishwananda quoted Vivekanand’s Ferris wheel a few different times, which represents the slots & positions of the jivas, there is no free will in those in any universe, which is the meaning of Krishn flute, we are played like instrument. But both posters agree on infinitely repeating universes @Ramachandra – veganenvironmentalist Jan 08 '23 at 06:59
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    @Rāmachandra Actually both those guys don’t talk about multiverse, just this universe. But my Devi scriptures tell of infinite universes. But anyway principle is the same everywhere, infinite repetition of exact sameness down to smallest details. Here is an example of a thread where necessity of exact repetition is explained, in order for the universe to exist in eternal return. If you search key words like moksh, universe, day of Brahma, yug, kalp, time cycles, the other threads will come up. https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/2457/is-moksha-a-permanent-state/10744#10744 – veganenvironmentalist Jan 08 '23 at 07:06
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    Here’s a helpful one too, esp the comments : https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/10911/does-free-will-really-exist-even-if-universe-repeats-itself-in-perfect-patter And this : https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/20415/when-brahmas-day-ends-and-a-new-day-starts-does-the-previous-day-repeat-itself?r=SearchResults&s=3%7C31.9451 This one https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/21419/does-following-line-states-brahma-repeats-same-incidents-everyday?r=SearchResults&s=5%7C24.4249 There are so many, wouldn’t be able to link them all. I found as so helpful and informative info – veganenvironmentalist Jan 08 '23 at 07:12
  • Anyway if you have thoughts on this plz let me know @Ramachandra (Only if you feel like sharing your views, of course) More info will also come up if you search eternal return on here. I spent tons of time googling this over the past several months, my Sanskrit & Hindi skillz are not great So I can’t just go to shastras and pull answers the way more advanced people here can. So far my theory is infinite souls/jiva in infinite universes, zero free will at any place. I think that’s what we’re looking at but I’ve made so many mistakes & been so wrong before at times, so can’t say for sure – veganenvironmentalist Jan 08 '23 at 07:29
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    @devibhakt Thank you for linking the Qns! Actually i myself am not so sure if my opinion is correct or not but for the past 2 days i was searching for an answer to this Qn.Just wanted to consolidate my thoughts before i wrote an answer by looking at all possible views.... – Rāmachandra Jan 08 '23 at 11:09
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    Let me tell you what i myself know and understand of time. Time is a huge circle with largest diameter, but because our life time is limited it appears linear to us. For example, earth is round but for us its straight. Same if u put an ant in a globe and revolve it. It will not have any effect. Now, time repeats brahma creates everything same as before but your choices might differ. Example in previous time u choose science but in next u have chosen arts or commerce. So, with your different choice your whole caareer is changed..... – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 16 '23 at 03:23
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    There are various versions of Ramayana in some even lakshman kills ravan. Kaak bhusandi saw many mahabharata n ramayana with different endings. Plus, sometimes your life depends on others choices like suppose in next cycle ur parents chooses different partners, result u r never born in that cycle. But it also might be your previous karma who knows. See time like a group of ants going in line some where but if u put some sweet stuff in its side the the ants will change direction towards that sweet and every other ants behind it will follow it. – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 16 '23 at 03:43
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    As for parallel universes or multiverses there is a beautiful conversation between lord rama and sage vasishta/vishwamitra i forgot from which scripture but here the sage tells the lord that there are infinite universes in some darkness rules, in some light rules, in some there are no tridevs, in some jo human as evolution didn't occur and so on. – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 16 '23 at 03:46
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    @Savdy Yeah, I agree, re multiple universes, the circular time that appears linear, the slightly different things happening due to kalp-bhed, differences in chaturyugs, the different endings & events for Mahabharath, Ramayan. & I think the exactly repeating universes is correct, as explained by iammilind & Swami Vishwanand in the linked threads. What I wonder is the free will thing, doesn’t seem there can be any free will of thoughts, emotions or actions in any universe at any level. So I put a huge fat bounty In case anyone can clarify for me Cause I’m losing sleep on that question – veganenvironmentalist Jan 16 '23 at 04:20
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    @Savdy Thx for your excellent comments, I def agree all that stuff With the Hinduism time cycles & niyati, karm-phal, my take is that for those to play out exactly & precisely each time, there’s zero free will. Down to every thought, feeling, down to subatomic level. & all the way up to highest level Devi/Devta. That’s my understanding but I have made huge mistakes in understanding before, & walked around for months & years w/ messed up ideas like total foolish vain idiot So yeah, I try to double check things now To avoid such huge embarrassing ridiculous errors in understanding – veganenvironmentalist Jan 16 '23 at 04:32
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    Bhagwan never takes away free will otherwise whats the meaning of karma. Its like kbc options are given but the choice is ultimately yours only. – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 16 '23 at 06:22
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    //There are various versions of Ramayana in some even lakshman kills ravan.// Are you talking about the Ramayana which is part of Mahabharata? @Savdy – LSSJ Broly Jan 16 '23 at 09:28
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    @LSSJBroly i think it's in jain version of Ramayana. – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 16 '23 at 10:01
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    Yeah Sorry I misunderstood your previous comment. @Savdy – LSSJ Broly Jan 16 '23 at 11:45
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    It's ok man. .. @LSSJBroly... – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 16 '23 at 16:44
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    To know about multiverse and parallel universes you can read this beautiful answer from quora. As for free will though it's dependent on Brahman but our choices makes the outcomes different. The proof is different outcomes seen by KaakBhushandi. And Kalpa Bheda theory. Which differs due to different different choices. Except some fixed points in time. Prd.. – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 22 '23 at 17:01
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    *"Yoga Vashishtha, the text which states conversations between Vashistha, a rig vedic teacher, and various Gods and Kakbhushubdi, a creature which stands outside of normal time and sees all. It recounts the cyclical nature of time, where Kakabhushundi has seen Ramayan 11 times with different outcomes and seen Mahabharat 16 times with different results, but, after seeing Daksha Yagya twice, he did not either care to see it again or saw no point to seeing any more, as it ended the same way each time."* – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 22 '23 at 17:02
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    Anyways, i know u have already got your answer. Still thought i should share the exact verses with you more more clarity. Cya. Gn. Tc. .. – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 22 '23 at 17:05
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    Thx friend ! @Savdy I’ve read some not very good English translations of Yog Vashishth & found it wonderful even w/ the problems in language w/ translation & once my Hindi/Sanskrit is stronger I’m gonna go back & read it properly, I really like the KakBhushundi part of the story. I also really liked the part where Sarasvati Maa takes the queen to other universes where somehow the queen & king were living there also. Was explanation of time space continuum that I still don’t understand it barely at all But I will read again in future ! Fully agree w/ kalp-bhed theory too. Thx ! – veganenvironmentalist Jan 22 '23 at 17:45
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    U r most welcome buddy. .. – Sri Shiva Charañam Dāsa Vishñu Jan 22 '23 at 18:45

2 Answers2

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The universe can't repeat exactly. Many people who attain moksha in one cycle will not be there in another cycle.

Is there free will?

I am posting Sri Ramakrishna's answers to this question where he suggests that free will is a mere illusion.

VAIDYANATH: "Sir, I have a doubt. People speak of free will. They say that a man can do either good or evil according to his will. Is it true? Are we really free to do whatever we like?"

MASTER: "Everything depends on the will of God. The world is His play. He has created all these different things — great and small, strong and weak, good and bad, virtuous and vicious. This is all His maya, His sport. You must have observed that all the trees in a garden are not of the same kind.

"As long as a man has not realized God, he thinks he is free. It is God Himself who keeps this error in man. Otherwise sin would have multiplied. Man would not have been afraid of sin, and there would have been no punishment for it.

"But do you know the attitude of one who has realized God? He feels: 'I am the machine, and Thou, O Lord, art the Operator. I am the house and Thou art the Indweller. I am the chariot and Thou art the Driver. I move as Thou movest me; I speak as Thou makest me speak.'

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, Chapter 9, Advice to the Brahmos

"It is God alone who has planted in man's mind what the 'Englishman'4 calls free will. People who have not realized God would become engaged in more and more sinful actions if God had not planted in them the notion of free will. Sin would have increased if God had not made the sinner feel that he alone was responsible for his sin.

"Those who have realized God are aware that free will is a mere appearance. In reality man is the machine and God its Operator, man is the carriage and God its Driver."

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, Chapter 18, M at Dakshineswar (II)

THE YOUNGER NAREN: "Sir, have we any free will?"

MASTER: "Just try to find out who this 'I' is. While you are searching for 'I', 'He' comes out. 'I am the machine and He is the Operator.' You have heard of a mechanical toy that goes into a store with a letter in its hand. You are like that toy. God alone is the Doer. Do your duties in the world as if you were the doer, but knowing all the time that God alone is the Doer and you are the instrument.

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, Chapter 42, Car Festival at Balaram's House

Pradip Gangopadhyay
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    “The universe can't repeat exactly. Many people who attain moksha in one cycle will not be there in another cycle.” <—— PG, friend, if you read the threads I linked in the comments above, the threads by iammilind & Swami Vishwanand, they explain that universe repeats exactly. Chaturyugs are kinda the same, kalps are more the same, then universes are zactly the same. Different jivas in same bodies doing same stuff every time. Here is one thread explaining that : https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/10911/does-free-will-really-exist-even-if-universe-repeats-itself-in-perfect-patter – veganenvironmentalist Jan 17 '23 at 04:59
  • @devibhakt I disagree with the idea that the universe repeats exactly the same. I have given one reason why it isn't so. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Jan 17 '23 at 05:01
  • Ok, however, the argument of people obtaining moksh will be out in next universe is actually supported by this theory. In that it will be same looking physical person but a different jiva in that body moving through the same actions. Vivekanand gives example of ferris wheel of jiva positions, the ferris wheel doesn’t change but the jivas do. Also this RK quote : “In reality man is the machine and God its Operator, man is the carriage and God its Driver." <—— This quote supports zero free will with the mind & body both being moved to speak & act by God. Madhav says to Arjun same in Gita too. – veganenvironmentalist Jan 17 '23 at 05:12
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    The arguments by Svami Vishwanand & iammilind are pretty convincing & supported very much by RK & Vivekanand. Extrapolating out to logical end would imply that action & thoughts/emotions gotta be with no free will. Which is why time cycles perfectly in place, & why there are different positions filled by different jiva, like how Ashwatthama will be next Ved Vyas, or that this or that jiva will be one of the SaptaRishi in next kalp & that sort of thing. Hanuman the next BrahmDev. It’s people moving up and down & laterally too, of course. However I’m not entirely sure so posted this question. – veganenvironmentalist Jan 17 '23 at 05:20
  • So you think there is no free will but just disagree that universe repeats exactly ? So then you would say there is no free will, zero free will over thoughts & feelings ? (Cause that’s my main thing) But also by the way I’m so excited to have someone post an answer to my question—thank you ! Thought it was gonna be tumbleweeds & crickets, like most topics I make on here – veganenvironmentalist Jan 17 '23 at 05:24
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    We are a combination of body-mind complex and the Atman. The body-mind complex simply can't have any free will since it is simply a machine. Even modern science now accepts that. Any free will is due to the presence of the Atman. Only the Divine will is free. Some of the free will of the Atman leaks out and make us feel that we have free will. Actually our free will is not ours but that of the Atman. A jivan Mukta is completely free while most people are only partially free. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Jan 17 '23 at 05:42
  • @Devibhakt your question is profound and congratulations for thinking about it. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Jan 17 '23 at 05:43
  • Yeah congratulations to me for driving myself bananas over this hahaha:D Anyway thx for replying PG, I’ll take some time & days to think over a bit more – veganenvironmentalist Jan 17 '23 at 06:05
  • @devibhakt is similar to nietzsche's 'eternal return' theory? – blue_ego Jan 18 '23 at 18:58
  • @blue_ego Not sure, only know bout ET in Hinduism – veganenvironmentalist Jan 18 '23 at 19:26
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In yoga vasishta chapter called "self realisation of queen chudala" lord vasistha basically says that some people are born exactly as they were born in a previous iteration of the universe and sometimes they are born somewhat like their previous iteration.

but after reading the whole of yoga vasistha and from personal experience , what I find what according to vedanta the answer to free will is this : at the highest levels , the level of the rishis or people who have won over their senses first and then found realisation of brahman/non duality upto an extent , for them there is total free will but for normal people like you and me, who are also atman but do not have realised non duality/ brahman and have , due to ignorance, not gained control over our senses or still cant discriminate that for us there is mostly destiny and fate and freewill is very low or less. this is because we ( the jivas ) have bound ourselves by our own habits/vrittis and samskaras and due to these its become difficult to actually do something which we actually want to do.

let me give you an example. a jiva is like a tobacco addict who was once free and could do whatever he wanted, but then by his own mistakes he formed a habit which was smoking cigarette which he liked doing at first but then he became an addict and as soon as this "recreational habit" became an addiction, his "free will" turned into shackles or destiny and now , until he becomes free of that addiction either through grace of a guru or through his own efforts of using nicotine patches or whatever, until then he will have to obey his body's wish of taking tobacco/nicotine into his system now. so what was once a pleasurable activity now became his "destiny" i mean you understand my example correct ? if you have a question ask.

another example of freewill existing is that yoga exists, which is basically techniques aimed at achieving union with brahman or a god with form like lord janardana or lord sadashiva or goddess Ambika etc. since the texts describe techniques which one should do to achieve union with god, that surely means that jivas must have free will of some kind , even if its very less, since the texts wouldn't advise have advised a person to do techniques or follow yoga if everything in his life was fixed.

so conclusion is: True free will exists , but for those gods or siddhas like beings who have done yoga and realised non duality upto an extent or upto a great deal. for jivas like us free will exists but very less, and due to our heavy baggage of karmas it seems like we dont have a say in almost all the things which happen in our life, but still there is some kind limited kind of freewill even for jivas this we can infer from yogic texts which advise humans to do certain things to achieve union with brahman.

Deepanshu Molasi
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