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Few verses of Manu Smriti like Manu 8.279-282 seem so offensive and against basic Compassion. Are they literal Punishments or just warnings not to commit bad acts???Even Shankaracharya quotes a verse to pour lac in ear of Sudra hearing Veda...Can you please present proof that these statements aren't literal?

Rickross
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Sethu Srivatsa Koduru
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If the crimes are imaginary only then it makes sense that the punishments are not literal. If crimes happened in real then apt punishments must also be delivered in real. So, the punishments are literal.

If people can commit crime knowing that they won't be literally punished then that will be the height of unrighteousness and there will be complete lawlessness everywhere.

Therefore, real, just and strict punishments are needed. And, the Dharma Shastras prescribe them.


Manu Smriti 7.14. For the (king’s) sake the Lord formerly created his own son, Punishment, the protector of all creatures, (an incarnation of) the law, formed of Brahman’s glory.

7.15. Through fear of him all created beings, both the immovable and the movable, allow themselves to be enjoyed and swerve not from their duties.

7.18. Punishment alone governs all created beings, punishment alone protects them, punishment watches over them while they sleep; the wise declare punishment (to be identical with) the law.

7.19. If (punishment) is properly inflicted after (due) consideration, it makes all people happy; but inflicted without consideration, it destroys everything

7.22. The whole world is kept in order by punishment, for a guiltless man is hard to find; through fear of punishment the whole world yields the enjoyments (which it owes)

7.23. The gods, the Danavas, the Gandharvas, the Rakshasas, the bird and snake deities even give the enjoyments (due from them) only, if they are tormented by (the fear of) punishment


There is no mention in any scriptures that the punishments aren't to be taken literally. And, regarding the pouring of lac punishment, it is not from the Manu Smriti but from the Dharmasutras of Goutama.

Rickross
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  • Sir is it justified to beat a Sudra just because he sits on same seat of a Bramhana?Arent these verses too unjust?Please see Manu 8.279-282 once sir! – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:02
  • Yes you can argue that they are unjust but you can not say that they are not to be taken literally. Need for strict and real punishments is undisputed. What you can argue about is whether the particular punishment is just or not. But that amounts to going against scriptures or doubting them. And, again these punishments are irrelevant in the present world @SethuSrivatsaKoduru – Rickross Nov 30 '20 at 07:04
  • Sir but will Lord allow beings to punish themselves for simple simple things? For Bramhanas again there are no such punishments(I agree they need to live an austere life with restrictions) Sir one more doubt-One Verse of Manu says Sudras cant even earn wealth..and another verse speaks of Sudra Kings-Isnt it controdictory?Arent some of laws here made out of hatred to give pains to other castes? – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:11
  • Medatithi says to massage even feet of Brahmanas and find satisfaction in that and they cant even earn wealth. Sir I agree they were given house etc all but again its said to feed them Ucchista-Ucchista means Saliva eaten food or Part left over after feeding guests?Sorry for too many doubts. Sir Vidurji says knowing how painful it is to oneself one must never do such an act to others. Please reply to both comments sir – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:12
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    I don't think they are to be given Ucchistha food. The leftover food is meant. Also even a Brahmin is not qualified to become a king. Only a Ksatriya is qualified. Well, in today's time most people will find some of these punishments as unjust. But who can really know whether they are unjust or not. Either we have to believe the scriptures or we reject them (at least partially). These are the options for us. @SethuSrivatsaKoduru – Rickross Nov 30 '20 at 07:15
  • Sir what about Sudras earning wealth?If some creature earns wealth how does it pain Bramhins who are supposed to be free from all desires(Manu says it causes pain to Bramhins) Sudras should massage feet of Bramhins and lead a low life and so many punishments with no wealth?Is it justified sir? – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:18
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru - do you know what is the punishment prescribed in Manu Smriti for a Brahmin drinking alcohol ? He has to drink hot molten lead until his stomach burns out and dies, only then his sin is pardoned. Do you know what is the punishment for a Shudra drinking alcohol ? Nothing. – ram Nov 30 '20 at 07:19
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    I think they can earn as they have legitimate occupations meant for them. Some verses are to be understood in a context and moreover we often find verses contradicting each other. So, it is not always easy to conclude something @SethuSrivatsaKoduru – Rickross Nov 30 '20 at 07:21
  • Dear @ram Yes I am aware of it. But how is it justified to make a Sudra just become a menial servant(Manu himself says it) and not even allow him to earn wealth? – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:21
  • @SethuSrivatsaKoduru, how is it justified for Brahmins to die by drinking molten lead and not even allow brahmins to drink alcohol which everyone in society seems to enjoy so much ? – ram Nov 30 '20 at 07:23
  • @Rickross Sir history speaks of Sudra Kings only. 85% of Indian Kings were Sudras. Can we safely assume these punishments were only theory and not much implemented?As you said stop worrying about past and focus on present now? – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:23
  • @ram Drinking alcohol he can avoid. He can have many other pleasures. One of Manu verses says even to appropriate all wealth and things of Sudras and Manu says Bramhin has right over everything on this earth. Isnt this unjust? Note:I am well aware how compassionate our Acharyas like Ramanujacharya Chaitanya Mahaprabhu were-But the Smritis go out of my box – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:24
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    If Sudras become kings then the kingdoms gradually will perish.. this is what is stated in Manu. AFAIK no punishment for him. Because it is the king whose duty is to inflict punishments. Also, I'm not really sure if 85% Indian kings were Sudras. @SethuSrivatsaKoduru – Rickross Nov 30 '20 at 07:25
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    Thanks a lot for your patient and detailed reply as usual @Rickross Ji! – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:26
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru - similarly, sitting on seat of brahmin, or hearing Vedas, a Shudra can avoid. A shudra can have many other pleasures - he can drink alcohol, he can look at a woman naked, he can eat meat to heart's content. Isn't this partiality towards Shudras and unjust against Brahmins ? – ram Nov 30 '20 at 07:26
  • @ram Wealth is the major point here. Bramhins can snatch stuff of Sudras says Manu in one of his verse. Manu says rules while naming Sudra also should indicate helplessness and servitude...Even Bramhins can eat meat and we all know it. There's not a big fuss about it. – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:28
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru - Brahmins are not supposed to earn wealth by going to job. They can only get donations. Isn't this unjust against Brahmins? Brahmins are not supposed to eat meat. Even if they can, it is only as part of a big yagna or ritual. Whereas Shudras can eat from McDonalds or KFC. Manu Smriti is the most biased book against Brahmins. – ram Nov 30 '20 at 07:29
  • @ram Sir what about Outcastes? They cant earn wealth and hated by all just bec of their birth. They do menial jobs...Sir Ramanujacharya worked a lot for their upliftment...I wish we had many Acharyas like Ramanujacharya who had universal compassion... – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:33
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru - do you believe in Karma ? do you believe in past & future lives? Can you explain why some children are born with diseases, while some are born in rich or pious family ? Can you explain why some evil people live happy lives, while some good people live sad lives ? If a person donates 1 crore, and dies next day, is his Punya gone waste and he won't get his reward ? If a person kills a man, and dies next day, is his Paap gone waste and he won't get his punishment ? – ram Nov 30 '20 at 07:35
  • Sir Karma ye-just because a person is born as outcaste-Doesnt mean that HE IS UNFIT TO DO GOOD JOBS-THIS IS MY POINT My guru Swami Sivananda accepeted and served Outcastes also – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Nov 30 '20 at 07:41
  • @ram Well said. He is biased against brahmins and can't look at it from the other perspective: how brahmins have so many restrictions by the so-called anti-Brahmin manusmriti. – Ikshvaku Dec 05 '20 at 03:41
  • @SethuSrivatsaKoduru "They cant earn wealth and hated by all just bec of their birth." - It is a sin to hate other people; the smritis prohibit hating others; one should not hate low caste people or anyone. Because of one's bad karma, they are born as low caste and have to do menial jobs. Because of one's good karma, they are born as high caste and have to do more holy jobs. – Ikshvaku Dec 05 '20 at 03:43
  • @SethuSrivatsaKoduru Shudras can earn wealth. The Manusmriti even says this in other places. – Ikshvaku Dec 05 '20 at 03:44
  • Dear @Ikshvaku Sir I am not Anti Bramhanical. I am follower of Bhakti Movemet-Narsi Mehta Eknath Tukaram Mira Bai. For me Gita and Bhagavatam are Vedas Upanishads and everything. I know my Lord Krishna doesnt care for caste-he embraced Outcastes and also helped Kanak Dasa and Thirupan Alvar who were outcastes and when they were denied entry to temple. Yes its sin to hate others-Gita 6.32 says feel others pain as your own. You said they have to do menial Jobs-Isnt that unjust?Which Smriti says that they can earn wealth? Manu(8.417) even says that they can even snatch Sudras wealth – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 05 '20 at 11:40
  • @Ikshvaku Sir imagine you were born as an outcaste-Now whole society doesnt even look at your face and discriminates you and you cant live a good life because of birth?? Gita 5.25 says work for welfare of all. Even after Swami Vivekananda said that Pariahs are struggling Bramhins have hardened their heart. See how Ramanujacharya was-he invited Dalits into temples. He even massaged feet of his Sudra Guru. I am follower of Hinduism but I really have lot of doubts. Why cant Outcastes do Jobs of Sudras and live a decent life?In schools dalits were made to sit on Floor and rest on benches... – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 05 '20 at 11:44
  • @Ikshvaku Sir According to Manu majority Bramhins are outcastes because they earn wealth and donot study Vedas..Do you accept that point? I am not biased sir Please Read my answers https://qr.ae/pNaY2v and https://qr.ae/pNaY2A My compassion is for Dalits. I am aware Chinna Jiyar Swami built hospitals schools etc for poor irrespective of Caste. Vedanta is opposed to Caste. Soul doesnt have a Caste. Please dont mistake me as "Anti Hindu". But I am stuck with serious doubts – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 05 '20 at 11:48
  • @ram Sir I hope you are reading my comments and understanding my concern-Please address myne if you can – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 05 '20 at 11:49
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru From the very same Manusmriti: "The Śūdra, seeking a livelihood, may serve the Kṣatriya; or the Śūdra may seek to subsist by serving a wealthy Vaiśya." - 10.121. i.e. he may serve a kshatriya or vaishya for material comforts, since they are wealthy. However, he should serve a Brahmana for spiritual merit, as mentioned in this exaggerated verse: "The service of the Brāhmaṇa is described as the distinctive duty of the Śūdra; everything else that he does is fruitless for him [exaggeration admitted by commentators]." - 10.123. – Ikshvaku Dec 05 '20 at 14:20
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru "The Kṣatriya shall cut through his misfortunes by the strength of his arms; the Vaiśya and the Śūdra by their wealth, and the chief of the twice-born by muttered prayers and oblations into the fire." - Manu 11.34. This presupposes that Shudras can have some wealth. However, it is important to understand that in the Vedic varna system, the primary duty of shudras is to serve dvijas and live off their income, not earn wealth, since that is done by vaishyas and other artisan/craftsmen castes. – Ikshvaku Dec 05 '20 at 14:28
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru Regarding the Manusmriti verse about "snatching wealth", it is about a shudra who is the servant of some Brahmana, and the Brahmana is permitted to use the wealth of his servants/slaves freely if he needs it. Medhatithi's commentary: "It is only when there is actual need that this can be right. Hence it is only when the Brāhmaṇa has no property of his own that he incurs no sin by seizing the goods of his Śūdra-slave." – Ikshvaku Dec 05 '20 at 14:31
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru I understand there were some injustices down towards dalits and outcastes, and it makes me sad; this is a symptom of kali yuga where people don't follow scriptures or have compassion. The caste system has been abused in kali yuga. "Do you accept that point?" Absolutely. 90% of Brahmins today are heinous sinners drinking liquor, eating onion/garlic, meat, becoming doctors, artisans, giving up vedic study, etc. – Ikshvaku Dec 05 '20 at 14:34
  • Thanks a lot dear @Ikshvaku Sir. Sir I am not biased-I hope you saw my answers but I am really in great depression bec of the abuses on Hinduism. I try to understand Dharma Shastra aren't biased bec they put lot of restrictions on Bramhins and say any Bramahana who earns money as preist in temple or by astrology is Outcaste and Kings can make such Bramhanas work for them without paying salaries. But sir Lord Krishna says be kind friendly and compassionate to all. And says see me in heart of all,feel others pain as your own etc.And Bhagavatam glorifies Lord's devotees even if they are Chandalas – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 06 '20 at 05:21
  • @Ikshvaku Sir didnt Lord Krishna embrace Chandalas?Bhagavatam says so. Please see my answer : https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/43646/19211 Sir Manu asks to learn special laws from Chandalas. Whereas Apasambana Dharma Sastra says it's sinful to look and talk to Chandal! Whereas Gita says see me in all beings! Be kind friendly and compassinate to all.Idk what to say but I am very depressed. I think you saw my answers and understood my situation. Totally helpless. And I have been begging Krishna to give me Darshan but he doesnt. What can I do? I have a dying urge to see him once! – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 06 '20 at 05:30
  • @Ikshvaku Sir please help me solve this riddle. Smritis say its sinful to look at and talk to Chandala(Apastamba 2.1.2.8-9. Whereas Gita says see me in all beings,work for welfare of all be kind and compassioante to all and MB says speak pleasing words. If speaking to chandalas was really sinful,Why Vishwamitra spoke to Chandala,Why Bharata King bowed to them,how Chandala purchased Harischandra and how Lord Krsna hugged them..Krsna sends Chandala to Bramhana to give water and asks to bow down to chandalas and behave in a way by knowing that he is in heart of all.... – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 06 '20 at 07:40
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru Yes, in Gita it is said "see me in all creatures", and that's because the Brahman abides in all creatures, whether they are a saint or sinner, god or demon, rishi or chandala. I think needless conversations with a chandala is sinful. Also, the apastamba verse could be about regular chandalas and not respectable ones in the examples you mentioned. A commentary can help interpret this verse. – Ikshvaku Dec 06 '20 at 21:04
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru, Suppose a student studies hard, he will be respected by teacher. But if another student always makes noise in class, he will be punished by teacher. Is this form of discrimination correct? Shouldn't all students be treated equally ? That's the same way for the different varnas. Those who behaved well in previous birth are given higher birth now. Those who behaved badly in previous birth are given lower birth now. This is justice. Treating everyone equally is injustice. – ram Dec 06 '20 at 21:32
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru, that being said, the definition of 'good behavior' is that students should not discriminate out of their own selfishness e.g. a 'brahmin' student cannot beat or deride a 'shudra' student, and a 'shudra' student cannot beat or deride a 'brahmin' student. Only teacher (bhagavan) has the right to reward or punish. The students should behave with each other according to rules laid down by teacher - brahmin do puja, kshatriya protect brahmin when he is doing puja, vaishya give brahmin money to buy items for puja, shudra help brahmin buy items for puja. – ram Dec 06 '20 at 21:35
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru, if brahmin student earns money instead of doing puja, teacher will punish him by making him into a vaishya next birth. similarly, each student will be rewarded or punished based on whether he obeys or disobeys rules (shastras). – ram Dec 06 '20 at 21:37
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    Thanks a lot @Ikshvaku Sir – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 07 '20 at 14:18
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    Thanks a lot @ram Sir – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 07 '20 at 14:18
  • Dear @Ikshvaku Sir Sorry to ask too much but is it Mandatory that Chandalas live in graveyads? See this once-It’s not an easy job,Sanjit reminds you.The stench of bodies, some having been kept in mortuaries for days and opened up for postmortems, is unbearable. To drown out the putrid odour, Sanjit drinks copious amounts of local whisky. He claims to drink over eight bottles (each 250mls) every day. He says, I’ve already had two since the morning. All Doms need to drink. The job is such. There is so much smell. What to do? Read more at: yourstory.com/2015/04/dom-raja-of-varanasi – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 09 '20 at 11:11
  • @Ikshvaku Sir Rishis cant be biased towards anyone they love all sir-Why will they ask someone to stay and guard graveyards which stink?Or when bodies are buried they wont stink in Smashana?I heard Yogis go and meditate there....But why is Dom Raja saying it stinks??And he says they struggle a lot and its painful.....isnt it sad?? Bhakti Movement included all sincere castes-Ramanujacharya himself started it-Vittobha protected "Outcastes" When they were abused by foolish people. Eknath a Bramhana used to interdine.I am not critising Hinduism sir I know my Krsna blessed all but pls help me – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 09 '20 at 11:13
  • Please have a look @ram Sir I am not able to tagg you both in same comments. Please I appolozize to both for troubling you – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 09 '20 at 11:14
  • @SethuSrivatsaKoduru It is because when someone commits very heinous sins, like murder of saints and men of God, and stealing their property and wealth, they are punished by God by being born into lowly conditions like that of a chandala where they have to execute criminals and burn corpses. Just like murders are born as insects and flies, some other sinners are born as hunters, butchers, bathroom cleaners, corpse disposers, etc. – Ikshvaku Dec 09 '20 at 16:13
  • @SethuSrivatsaKoduru That is what scripture says chandalas should live like, and how they lived in ancient India. But like all other things and other castes, such a lifestyle is not possible nowadays. There is no public executions, etc. jobs available and most caste jobs require that the whole society follows the caste system. – Ikshvaku Dec 09 '20 at 23:10
  • @Ikshvaku Sir Once you quoted Gautama 10.67 so can that mean that they will change their jobs if they are well behaved??Even Sb 7.11.35 indirectly might mean the same??According to Manu all Pratiloma are of nature of Sudra right...What u say sir – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 10 '20 at 05:05
  • @SethuSrivatsaKoduru For Gautama sutra 10.67, let me cite Haradatta's commentary. Haradatta was a commentator who commented on several dharma sutras. He says: "There is equality between them, i.e. the one need not serve the other. A Sûdra need not serve even a Brâhmana, (much less) any other (twice-born man) who lives the life of a non-Âryan (Sûdra). A Sûdra, even, who conducts himself like an 'Âryan must not be despised by men of other castes, who follow the occupations of non-Âryans, on account of his inferior birth." – Ikshvaku Dec 10 '20 at 14:09
  • @SethuSrivatsaKoduru "According to Manu all Pratiloma are of nature of Sudra right" - All Pratiloma generally have the spiritual nature of a shudra. And not just pratilomas, even fallen dvijas, vratyas (non-upanayanam dvijas), etc. all partake of the nature of shudras. And that means is lack of spiritual insight and lots of tamoguna. "Shudra" in one sense just means "low spiritual insight". – Ikshvaku Dec 10 '20 at 14:10
  • @Ikshvaku Sir Thanks a lot for the patience. I have a logical qn. So a Chandala gets birth because of bad karma. Now what he should do?He has to kill Animals and burn corpses..So Killing animals--Bad Karma and then he will sink further to lower births right-How can he gain upper Varna? If you say he can stop eating Non Veg-Then to eat Veg Food will he get money?If yes how?He isnt even allowed to do any other job than such cruel Jobs- – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 10 '20 at 16:04
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    @SethuSrivatsaKoduru Those jobs are not sinful for people of those castes. Nishadas must hunt and fish, chandalas must touch and cremate corpses, etc. All these jobs are explicitly enjoined by the Vedas for these castes, and the Vedas do not enjoin sinful things. So, these people who fulfill their caste duties will get a higher caste birth next life. – Ikshvaku Dec 10 '20 at 16:43
  • @Ikshvaku sir thanks a lot for your patience. Pillai Lokacharya said Birth in lower Varna is better for Moksha. Sri Vedanta Desikan also explained Varna System. My few more doubts Pls help me - Can these outcastes also eat Vegetarian Food?How will they earn money?Mahabharata says guys outside 4 Varnas can do any Job to make their living so they can sell forest products etc..earn money from that and eat Vegetarian Food? – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 11 '20 at 09:40
  • @Ikshvaku Please dont say no sir! Even Narada Muni said to distribute Food Equally to all Humans. Can you suggest more works of Acharys to study on varna system?I know 2 sir- Srivachana Bhusana and Srimad Rahasya Sara. – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 11 '20 at 09:45
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – Sethu Srivatsa Koduru Dec 11 '20 at 11:17
  • @SethuSrivatsaKoduru Tell me if you go into the forest and meet a tribe of amazonian the fear of the unknown creeps up also as per Haridatta a Chandala or outcaste is a thief. Even Puranas state a Chandala with good moral character should be respected and integrated into society. Anyone with a generally bad moral character as per Smriti is a Chandala, although because Shudra and Brahmin-born communities didn't follow the morality prescribed they were generally considered to be such. – Haridasa Feb 29 '24 at 02:03
  • @Ikshvaku I am interested – Haridasa Feb 29 '24 at 02:04