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Are there any refutations to this argument put forth by the Buddhist philosophers? Particularly, the one against the authorlessness of Vedas because no one remembers who their authors are?

Criticism of the Veda :— The Mīmāṁsāka maintains that the Veda is eternal. Words, meanings and their relationship are all eternal. The injunctions and the prohibitions of the Veda are all that we need. The Veda has neither a before nor an after; therefore it is authorless and eternal. Dharmakīrti, Shāntarakṣita and Kamalashīla bitterly criticize this view: The Mīmāṁsāka says that ignorance, jealousy, hatred, etc., which are the causes of the unreliability of words are found in persons; words of persons, therefore, are unreliable. The Buddhist retorts that knowledge, non-jealousy non-hatred etc. which are the causes of the reliability of words are found in persons; words of persons, therefore, are reliable. It is only a person who can speak or write or understand words. The Veda itself cannot reveal its meaning. It is indeed a wonder that there are people who can uphold such a clearly absurd view that because we do not remember the authors of the Veda, therefore the Veda is not the creation of persons! Fie on the pitched darkness of ignorance which pervades this world! This view can be valid only for the blind followers who are ignorant of logic. By this logic many other works also whose authors are not known will have to be regarded as authorless. And absolute reliability shall have to be attached to those words of heterodox outsiders, the origin of which cannot be traced, and to those horrible customs of the Mlechchhas or the Parasikas, like marrying one's own mother or daughter, the origin of which is not remembered. Again, if the Mīmāṁsāka thinks it his right to give peculiar meanings to such ordinary words like 'Svarga,' 'Urvashi,' etc. which occur in the Veda, then who can reasonably check us if we proclaim that this sentence of the Veda—'One who desires heaven should perform sacrifice', means that 'One should eat the flesh of a dog' or that 'Buddha is omniscient'? The argument that because some sentences of the Veda are true, therefore the entire Veda is true is clearly wrong because some sentences, even of a trustworthy person, may be wrong while some sentences, even of an untrustworthy person, may be right. It is only the true words of trustworthy persons which do not contradict our experience that should be recognized as the Agama. If the Mīmāṁsāka is really eager to establish the authority of the Veda, he should try to prove that the Veda is the work of some faultless author of supra-normal vision who has risen above all ignorance. Indeed, right words embodying truth and goodness, and emanating from persons highly intelligent and merciful do claim validity.

Say No To Censorship
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    There are many Hindu scriptures which state that Vedas are authorless. Vedas themselves have mantras that indicate the same. So it is not that Vedas are considered authorless because nobody knows who the authors were. – Rickross Jun 15 '19 at 05:41
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    @Rickross To refute this you have put yourself in the Buddhist shoes. So statements made from authority like 'many Hindu scriptures which state that Vedas are authorless' and 'Vedas themselves have mantras that indicate the same' have no value when arguing with a Buddhist. – Say No To Censorship Jun 17 '19 at 20:10
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    I could not get it . If Hindus are arguing they will do it using Hindu beliefs and scriptures only. What kind of arguments will satisfy the Buddhists? And what is our loss if they remain unsatisfied? :P – Rickross Jun 19 '19 at 07:09
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    'What kind of arguments will satisfy the Buddhists?' - that which rely purely on logic but not on any particular scripture. @Rickross – Say No To Censorship Jun 19 '19 at 15:23
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    The reason/plan of Vishnu's Buddha avatara was to break the belief in Vedas of asura-natured atheistic people, so that they would stop deriving power from its mantras. Looking at this question, I would say his plan is working out exactly as intended. – ram Sep 07 '19 at 03:54
  • @Rickross, it's the same as my mango argument - people will refuse to eat a mango, yet ask for proof of its sweetness, and proclaim as though we are the fools for being unable to prove. Any case, their loss. For the believers, no need of proof. For the non-believers, no use of proof. – ram Sep 07 '19 at 03:59
  • @sv. "What kind of arguments will satisfy the Buddhists?' - that which rely purely on logic but not on any particular scripture" - This is a strange answer, considering that buddhists also have many scriptures of their own, all of which rely on buddha being truthful and enlightened. –  Nov 05 '19 at 12:04
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    Why is it strange? Maybe this meme will help understand the point I'm making. Two sects who accept the authority of Vedas can use Vedas in their arguments. But to one who doesn't consider Vedas as authority, how will quoting from them advance the argument? @LazyLubber – Say No To Censorship Nov 05 '19 at 20:09
  • @sv. Exactly. So those who believe in Bilbo cannot question believers of Jesus and vice versa. Or do you think that Buddhists have no beliefs? –  Nov 06 '19 at 03:56
  • "Apaurusheyatva" does not mean "authorlessness". It means pertaining to truths that do not depend on human relativity. As all the acharyas have discussed, Vedas deal in "vastu tantra" i.e. "knowledge of ultimate reality", i.e. Brahman. They do not deal in "purusha tantra" i.e. "knowledge of human affairs". The former does not vary based on who expresses it. The latter has as many variations as the number of humans expressing it. So "apaurusheya" means "independent of human media". Vedas are not "authorless", we certainly know the names of the human rishis who gave expression to the mantras. – RamAbloh Aug 17 '20 at 04:38
  • @sv. I'd have to dig up references to answer :) – RamAbloh Aug 17 '20 at 18:11

2 Answers2

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Are there any refutations to this argument put forth by the Buddhist philosophers? Particularly, the one against the authorlessness of Vedas because no one remembers who their authors are?

No need to refute that argument, because it's a strawman argument.

The argument is not merely, "We don't remember the author, therefore there is no author." The actual argument is that there was no author of the Vedas because one is not remembered when one would be remembered if one was there.

This type of argument is an anupalabdhi, or proof of non-existence by non-perception. Anupalabdhi falls under the category of Anumana (inference) and not Pratyaksha (perception), because you're not perceiving the non-existence of the object, but rather, you're inferring the non-existence by not perceiving it.

Here is an example of anupalabdhi: "There is no elephant in my room because I don't see one, and this is because if there was one then I would see it."

This is completely reasonable and people use this argument all the time. If someone asks you, "Is Donald Trump in your room?" You'll say, "No, I'm looking in my room and I don't see him. Therefore, he's not here."

Likewise, memory is a type of perception, and so you can apply anupalabdhi using it. Here is how you can use anupalabdhi with memory: "I know I haven't been to Antarctica before because if I had, I would remember it." Again this is also reasonable and people use it all the time. For example, they will ask you in job interviews, "Have you ever done this before?", "Do you have experience with this or that?" And people will answer yes or no based on their memory. One can recollect or not recollect an event. So, this type of reasoning is also valid for memory.

However, the caveat is that the event may not be significant enough for you to remember it, in which case, the non-remembrance of such an event does not constitute proof of it not happening before. For example, if someone asks me, "Did you eat pizza on July 22nd, 2007?" I will say, "I don't remember", or "How am I supposed to remember that?" and that is because this fact is so insignificant that I don't remember it.

However, if they ask me if I ate pizza yesterday, I can say yes or no, because I have clear memory of what I ate yesterday.

In the same way, one can establish that the Vedas do not have an author. The Vedas are so important (to the expounders of the Vedas) that if there was an author, the expounders of the Vedas would have recollection of authorship. In fact, the expounders of the Vedas have a recollection of an eternal and unbroken lineage extending all the way back to the time of revelation of the Vedas and do not have a recollection of an author.

In other words, the Vedic lineages remember that the Vedas were revealed at the beginning of creation by Brahma, who has also said that the Vedas were revealed in a previous creation, and a creation before that, and so on.

Hence, the Vedas are eternal.

Here is what Shabara says in his Bhashya, which is the oldest available commentary on Jaimini's Purva Mimamsa Sutras:

Opponent: "As the creator existed a long time back, it is only natural that he should be beyond the sense perception of men of the present day"

Siddhantin: Even if he had existed a long time back, it would not be impossible to remember him. In the case of such important things as the Himalaya mountain and the like, it would be impossible to forget the creator, in the manner in which the builder of a wall, a garden and such things becomes forgotten. In the case of these latter there are such causes for the builder being forgotten as the disappearance of all idea of the builder, due either to the disruption of his country or to the extinction of his family. In the case of words and their meanings on the other hand, there is no total disappearance of persons making use of them.

Yamunacharya in the Agama Pramanya also says that if there was an author of the Vedas, expounders of the Vedas would profusely cite the trustworthiness and characteristics of the author of the Vedas as proof for the authoritativeness of the Vedas, just like how Hindu scholars cite the trustworthiness of Vyasa to establish the authoritativeness of the Mahabharata, and just like how Christians, Jews, and Muslims claim that the Old Testament is authoritative because it is authored by God.

hashable
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Ikshvaku
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    so.. your entire argument hinges on the supposed fact that 'Vedas are important' ? well, guess what.. here is a very easy way to dispute that argument - "Vedas are not that important. If they were, everyone would learn them, instead of just 10,000 brahmanas in India out of 7 billion people on earth" – ram Sep 07 '19 at 03:55
  • I'll say it again and again - For the believers, no need of proof. For the non-believers, no use of proof. – ram Sep 07 '19 at 03:56
  • @ram They are so important to the expounders of the Vedas that if there was an author, he would be remembered. – Ikshvaku Sep 07 '19 at 12:41
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अपौरुषेय, apauruṣeya, means "not of a man".

I think there is a basic misconception about the word used. The Veda was called अपौरुषेय, apauruṣeya- not because no one remembers who their authors are, but because the author was, is and will be the Almighty God.


Here, the usage of the word "author" requires clarification.

The ancient seers, unlike later day commentators, knew their limitations and the power of Almighty.

The seers heard the revelations/mantras during their deep meditations and they transmitted their knowledge to the mankind.

Though those mantras were known to subsequent generations under the name of the seer, who transmitted that knowledge, and had been ascribed to that seer the authorship, yet we have to remember that the inspiration/source behind those revelations/matras is the Almighty God only.

They stated the Veda as apauruṣeya, because the contents in the Veda are divine and eternal. Out of humbleness, knowing fully well the divinity of eternal laws -sanAtana dharma, they called those laws as apauruṣeya.

Rig Veda III.3.1.

वैश्वानराय पर्थुपाजसे विपो रत्ना विधन्त धरुणेषु गातवे | अग्निर्हि देवानम्र्तो दुवस्यत्यथा धर्माणि सनता न दूदुषत ||

To him who shines afar, Vaiśvānara, shall bards give precious things that he may go on certain paths: For Agni the Immortal serves the Deities, and therefore never breaks their everlasting laws.


Any Natural law is divine, whether it was/is/will be observed by a human of Eastern or Western hemisphere of our Earth.

Let us consider the law of Gravitation.

This law was in existence even before Newton, is in existence now, and will be there after us, because it is a Natural Law, thus it is Divine.

Newton, though a great person, yet a human, claimed name for his discovery of that Law, but did not ascribe to the Almighty god.

Ancient seers, who discovered or heard the Divine laws and transmitted them as Veda, did not claim the authorship because they were elevated souls.

That is the difference.

Srimannarayana K V
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    Sorry, but this doesn't answer the question. The Vedas calling themselves 'authorless' or 'everlasting' is not proof that they are authorless/eternal. Your answer is an appeal to authority so it's a fallacy. For comparison, take a look at this meme. – Say No To Censorship Sep 09 '19 at 20:34
  • 'Let us consider the law of Gravitation' - can you give an example of an 'eternal law' from the Vedas? What if there are some laws that are not 'eternal?' – Say No To Censorship Sep 09 '19 at 20:41
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    @sv. Appeal to authority is only a fallacy when the person making the claim is not qualified to do so. – Ikshvaku Sep 09 '19 at 21:03
  • @Ikshvaku Who is the qualified person here, what is their subject of expertise, and what is their claim? In pure logic/philosophy, the subject matter is logic itself, there is no qualified person. – Say No To Censorship Sep 09 '19 at 21:26
  • You have right to not to accept my answer. My answer contains TRUTH, as far as I know. TRUTH doesn't need further assistance, to explain further, except an open mind to see it. @sv. – Srimannarayana K V Sep 09 '19 at 22:18
  • @sv No person who is speaking the vedas at all, so no chance of applying appeal to fallacy. – Ikshvaku Sep 10 '19 at 00:59
  • @Ikshvaku This answer cites a verse from the Rigveda and says whatever is said in it is eternal. How is this a refutation to the Buddhist argument? Similar logic can be used to prove "laws" stated in Bible, Quran, Torah are all "eternal." – Say No To Censorship Sep 10 '19 at 01:22
  • @sv Yeah I understood the intent of your argument, but technically it's not an appeal to authority fallacy. And anyways those other religious texts don't even claim their texts are eternal. – Ikshvaku Sep 10 '19 at 01:38
  • Eternal laws do not always indicate scientific laws alone. Rig veda is all about spiritual concepts, which can only be experienced . Seers of that era heard/experienced and passed on to next generation. That is why Veda is Sruti .@sv. – Srimannarayana K V Sep 10 '19 at 03:22
  • @Ikshvaku Maybe 'begging the question' or 'circular argument' fallacy. – Say No To Censorship Sep 10 '19 at 23:16
  • @srimannarayanakv Can you give me example of a single/verifiable law from the Vedas? You did compare the 'eternal laws' found in Vedas to the law of gravitation (which is verifiable). – Say No To Censorship Sep 10 '19 at 23:18
  • It is a ridiculous argument. How can we compare tangible with intangible? I had stated Eternal Laws of Spirituality. Unless you prepare yourself for Spirituality, you cannot understand it. Can you compare intangible things like love, anger, etc , with your verifiable things? If you don't want to accept my answer, it is fine and go for down voting, as many others are doing. Please don't resort to this type of arguments @sv. – Srimannarayana K V Sep 11 '19 at 01:06
  • The Almighty God gave us both tangible and intangible things . If you are an agnostic or irreligious or belongs to some other religion , it is your personal issue. However, please don't compare tangible with intangible. @sv. – Srimannarayana K V Sep 11 '19 at 01:13
  • 'please don't compare tangible with intangible' - please go back and read your answer again. It is you who used the law of gravitation ('tangible' according to you) in your answer and go on to say "thus it is Divine"...why are you comparing apples and oranges in your answer? If Vedas contain only intangible laws then say so clearly in the answer instead of engaging in word games. And don't mention tangible laws like gravitation to explain the intangible. – Say No To Censorship Sep 11 '19 at 20:44
  • I know you reach to this conclusion. I had stated that every law is divine, because everything had been made by God. So there was no comparison there. As I already stated, you have a choice of rejecting my answer. I am not an expert in word games . I will stop here. @sv. – Srimannarayana K V Sep 11 '19 at 21:17
  • @sv, "> Your answer is an appeal to authority so it's a fallacy" - And Yet, you take that diabetes medicine with full trust in the doctor's authority, and zero investigation from your part. And Yet, you believe an atom/electron/proton exists with full trust in the scientist's authority and zero investigation from your part. You may say 'I don't believe it until it works'. I say 'So you're willing that take that initial leap of faith ?'. You say 'Yeah, because my parents, and friends and peers trust this doctor'. I say 'well I rest my case'. – ram Nov 05 '19 at 14:44
  • @srimannarayanakv, so you are saying the 'Rishis did not claim ownership ?' .. Implying they had a choice to do so ? Implying that people would believe them if they made such a claim ? – ram Nov 05 '19 at 14:46
  • @sv, the law of gravity is as tangible as the law of karma. your refusal to accept spiritual reasoning is no different from a layman simply claiming that wireless phones work due to 'magic'. From now on, don't call any 'scientific law' as tangible until you personally have discovered it from scratch. Until then, all you are doing is an 'appeal to authority', while denigrating others who do the same, which makes your reputation on this site.. well, questionable. – ram Nov 05 '19 at 14:50
  • @sv "@srimannarayanakv Can you give me example of a single/verifiable law from the Vedas?" - well, can YOU give me an example of a single/verifiable law from Science ? Whatever law you give, I will refuse to accept it in EXACTLY the same way as you refuse to accept one from Vedas. – ram Nov 05 '19 at 15:17
  • When ONE reaches finality in spiritual realm, with no desires left, do you think the saints will claim so?@ram – Srimannarayana K V Nov 05 '19 at 15:56
  • @srimannarayanakv, when one reaches finality in spiritual realm, with no desires left, do you think the saints will lie ? – ram Nov 06 '19 at 19:42
  • @ram:In the final stage, the seers just transmit the knowledge in a poetic/cryptic way. There will not be any desire to claim authorship. If you go through the episode of composing of UMA SAHASRAM , by Sri Kavyakantha Ganapati muni, a disciple of Sri Ramana Maharishi, you can understand the issue. SRI Ganapati muni composed that poem in such a physical condition that unless a divine intervention was there, it would not be possible for him to achieve the task. Sri Muni understood that. – Srimannarayana K V Nov 06 '19 at 22:19
  • @srimannarayanakv, there will also be no desire to lie, if when the receivers of said knowledge specifically ask 'did you author this?'. You think everyone just happily took Savitri mantra from Vishvamitra without asking him about how/where/who found it ? I'm pretty sure the answer was 'I didn't find it. I simply heard it'. – ram Nov 06 '19 at 22:42
  • @ram: I think the discussion is going in a different track. What I said in my answer was "the author was, is and will be the Almighty God". It doesn't mean that the God himself came down and wrote it. It was the seer, who heard it and wrote it. However, the source of inspiration is God. That is why the seers said the Veda is apaUrushEya – Srimannarayana K V Nov 07 '19 at 01:17
  • @srimannarayanakv, then what exactly is this debate about ? we both agree that Bhagavan is the author. And the seer is not the author. So, saying that 'the seer will not claim authorship' has no meaning, because it implies that he is the author but simply not claiming it out of modesty. – ram Nov 07 '19 at 01:23
  • @ram: so do you want me to add the inspiration part also? – Srimannarayana K V Nov 07 '19 at 01:52
  • First we have to differentiate between 'author' and 'discoverer'. I think we're both clear on that - Neither Newton invented gravity, nor Rishis invented mantras. Both of them only discovered it. Now, when you say elevated souls don't claim ownership - you're partly right and partly wrong. Yes, they don't BOAST that they discovered it. But, we still ATTRIBUTE ownership to those rishis. When doing sandhya, we remember the rishi who discovered and propagated it, the chandas and the devata. Just as we say Newton discovered gravity, we say Rishi discovered mantra. Nothing wrong with that. – ram Nov 07 '19 at 05:37
  • @sv. I didn't understand the meme. – TheLittleNaruto Aug 17 '20 at 06:58
  • The meme illustrates a fallacy ('argument from authority'), e.g., a book claiming it has no author or that a personality really exists because it says so in the book. A comic book can make a similar claim about Spider-Man. So are we to believe both claims are equally valid? In the case of Jesus Christ, that's why historians try to find sources other than the Bible where he's mentioned. See this question on Skeptics SE. @TheLittleNaruto – Say No To Censorship Aug 17 '20 at 14:32
  • Rig Veda falls beyond the realm of your scepticism @sv. The problem with the people like you is that you think that if something doesn't fit in your myopic vision, it will be named as not existing. I had stated many a time before and now reiterating - SPIRITUALITY is the essence of the Rig Veda. Unless you REALISE, but not understand, what SPIRITUALITY is, you can never grasp what it contains. :-). Be happy in your world – Srimannarayana K V Aug 17 '20 at 16:56
  • Since the main site is meant for Q&A, it's best to not to discuss or argue over each other's personal beliefs here. We can discuss my personal views in a chat room if you like. @SrimannarayanaKV – Say No To Censorship Aug 17 '20 at 17:02
  • My comment followed your comment above. By the way, I am not interested to discuss with a person, whose aim is just to argue on scholarly basis, without having interest in realising the content. Sorry you can engage in a scholarly argument with a worthy opponent. I am not that competent @sv. – Srimannarayana K V Aug 17 '20 at 17:11
  • In my previous comment I was simply explaining to another user what a particular meme meant and why I used it here. It wasn't directed towards you. Your comment on the other hand is engaging in name-calling ('problem with the people like you', 'your myopic vision', etc.). SE users should be able to disagree on several things (including the authority of Vedas) and still show respect to each other. There's no need to attack each other personally. – Say No To Censorship Aug 17 '20 at 17:57
  • Please remember that each one of the comment was notified to me, because it's below my post. So I was indirectly dragged into the matter. Had you people chatted in a Chat room, I would have ignored. I had seen your discussion with another member RamAbloh in chat room "Hinduism". Did I make any comment there? @sv. I know my limitations. In future, please have your scholarly discussion in a Chat room. Thanks – Srimannarayana K V Aug 17 '20 at 20:47
  • Although it's your answer any SE user can post a comment here asking for a clarification on a previous comment. It's probably best to ignore comments addressed to '@' even though posted under your questions/answers. This is the general SE rule everyone follows. – Say No To Censorship Aug 17 '20 at 20:58