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Scientists claim that the underlying notion of a theory is falsifiability i.e. the ability to disprove a statement by performing an experiment laid out by the scientist.

Rishis claim that the underlying notion of a shastra is falsifiability i.e. the ability to disprove a statement by performing an experiment laid out by the rishi.

E.g.
SCIENCE:
Theory - Sky is blue
How to disprove it ? - Open your eyes. If sky is green, theory is disproved.
If I am blind, or I refuse to open my eyes, or I look at the earth instead of looking up - all those are my faults. If I am faulty, and still claim that the scientists are fake, no scientist will change his claim because of some faulty experimenter.

RELIGION:
Theory - Yagna produces rain
How to disprove it ? - Perform yagna. If rain doesn't pour, theory is disproved.
If I am sinful, or I refuse to perform yagna, or don't follow the thousands of rules/regulations required - all those are my faults. If I am faulty, and still claim that rishis are fake, no rishi will change his claim because of some faulty experimenter.

Is there any difference between these two claims? Which Pramana (mode of proof) is different between science and religion ?

The Flying-Teapot or Flying-Spaghetti-Monster or No-True-Scotsman argument is commonly presented as an example of a 'non-falsifiable' claim - something whose existence is very hard or impossible to verify or goal posts shifting after a skeptic fails to verify. It is often used to deride the religious believers.

However, it is very simple to deride scientific rationalists using the same argument. I can call any scientific statement like 'Atoms exist' or 'Vaccines save lives' as 'non-falsifiable' because it is very hard or impossible for me to verify, because I don't want to do Physics PhD/postdoc for 10 years or doing pharmaceutical double blind trials for 20 years.

Can anyone, especially the scientific/rational/atheists, give an example of a single non-falsifiable claim in Vedas, or Vedanga like Jyotisha (Astrology) ?

ram
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 12 '19 at 22:56
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    It seems like you’re not really asking a question, instead you’re making an argument for something, which is not really what questions are for. So I’m closing your question for the time being. If you want to revise your post into an actual question, edit it and flag me to reopen it. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 12 '19 at 22:57
  • For instance, you could ask a short question just on whether Hindu scripture contains any non-falsifiable statements. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 12 '19 at 22:58
  • "Scientists claim that the underlying notion of a science is falsifiability i.e. the ability to disprove a statement via performing an experiment." Falsifiability is mentioned first by Karl Popper. He was not a scientist. I doubt if this claim about falsifiability comes from scientists. We dont know how many scientists worry about philosophy of science. –  Apr 13 '19 at 05:11
  • "Rishis claim that the underlying notion of religion is falsifiability". Please give references showing where rishis made this statement. –  Apr 13 '19 at 05:18
  • @LazyLubber, i'm using scientist as a synonym for the scientific method followers, i.e. those who reject faith-based religion etc. doesn't matter if they're a scientist working at CERN, or a philosopher from the 17th century – ram Apr 13 '19 at 14:08
  • @LazyLubber, it doesn't matter whether the rishis claim it or not. those who say that religion is non-falsifiable made the first claim. let them show reference where they said so first. – ram Apr 13 '19 at 14:09
  • What constitutes scientific method is not fixed. It is debatable and many philosophers/scientists have different opinions on this. The falsifiability claim is a bit dated. –  Apr 13 '19 at 15:14
  • If it does not matter whether rishis claim it or not, then why did you write that rishis make that claim? –  Apr 13 '19 at 15:15
  • @LazyLubber, do you understand what an argument is ? this is just like the 20-year room analogy... the exact details of the room do not matter. the point is that lack of falsifiability is a complaint placed by skeptics on rishis. rishis themselves have no such delusions. if at all someone asked rishis if their statements were falsifiable, they would say obviously yes. – ram Apr 13 '19 at 15:56
  • " if at all someone asked rishis if their statements were falsifiable, they would say obviously yes" This statement needs justification. I am not sure what is so obvious here. –  Apr 13 '19 at 16:19
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    @LazyLubber, it does not even matter whether they call it falsifiable or not. the fact remains that they have given a hypothesis, and experiment, and a verification method. does every scientist say 'this claim is falsifiable' before making a claim. it is implied. same way with anything mentioned in vedas. – ram Apr 13 '19 at 17:39
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    "Is religion different from science?" well yes. Since religion in general has no scientific background. If it wasn't hinduism would be a fact and not a religion. Easy-peasy. – Wikash_ Apr 14 '19 at 16:42
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    @Wikash_hindu, you're wrong. religion has a scientific background. you've just been brainwashed into thinking otherwise. just the name 'religion' does not make it unscientific. just like the name 'science' does not make it irreligious. even science requires some faith, and even religion requires some verification. – ram Apr 14 '19 at 17:25
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    I feel the question is not science vs religion but "believer of science" vs "believer of religion". A true scientist experiments and verifies. The same way a true Rishi does his own experiments, like yoga, yagna, dyana or so. You can believe sky is blue, or it looks blue due to air or go to outer space to verify. Same way you can believe Yagna can bring rain, or do it and succeed/fail or try to understand and all complexities and reasons for the rules of a yagna. Also can one believe with one success/failure, or two, be it science/religion? – Sreekumar R Apr 14 '19 at 17:58
  • @SreekumarR, you're correct. i'm leveling the playing field here, since it seems to be tilted towards scientists thinking that religious rituals are made-up. there is really no difference between religion and science. the only difference is people choosing which hypotheses to test out, and how dedicatedly they do it. – ram Apr 14 '19 at 18:24
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    @ram "religion has a scientific background." If you can show that god exists you do not need me or this exchange. You'll have enough money to do everything in the world. So go ahead. – Wikash_ Apr 14 '19 at 19:11
  • @ram a ritual can be specific to a place or condition as well. Following it blindly will not help, or can be even harmful. – Sreekumar R Apr 14 '19 at 19:36
  • @Wikash_hindu what is your definition of a fact? Some thing that you know? Or something that you believe a scientist knows? How would you prove Hinduism is not a fact? – Sreekumar R Apr 14 '19 at 19:38
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    @Wikash_hindu, yes God exists. do you want proof ? all you need to do is the thing I said earlier - do penance for 12 years. if you're not interested in it, don't waste my time. just like the person who refuses to open his eyes and keeps on asking scientists to prove that the sky is blue. – ram Apr 14 '19 at 20:12
  • @ram.the burden of proof is not on me. If you make a claim then it is up to you to deliver the proof. If you get a loan from a bank you have to prove that you will able to pay it back the bank should not prove it. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:14
  • @Wikash_hindu, i have already proven it to you. but you refuse to accept the proof. if i show that I have a home to take loan against, but bank refuses to come and see my house, i won't bother with that bank anymore. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:19
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    "do you want proof ?" Yes me and a large part of the world is looking for it really badly. Don't you want the Nobel prize and eternal fame? – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:20
  • @Wikash_hindu, the large part of the world already has the 'proof' of God. proof is external. like scientists 'proving' that atoms exist, or black-holes exist, or that man landed on the moon. we can either believe them, or disbelieve them. it doesn't affect the lives of most people. only those who are interested actually study PhD and verify it for themselves. similarly, rishis have proved God exists. we can either believe it or not believe it. it doesn't affect the lives of some people. only those who are interested actually do tapsya and verify it for themselves. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:22
  • @ram do you also believe superman really exists? You don't? Then do tapsya chanting the name of superman for 12 years then I am sure you will see this god. Does this sounds reasonable to you? – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:36
  • @Wikash_hindu, do you also believe that parallel universes exist ? Do PhD for 15 years and I'm sure you will see this parallel universe. Does this sound reasonable to you ? People said the same thing about black holes when they were first hypothesized by Einstein. But that did not stop people from studying them for 100 years. You have a random personal feeling that God doesn't exist. Same way, some person can have a random personal feeling that black holes don't exist. Only the people who are really interested will actually do research or tapasya to find out. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:38
  • @ram if an investigation needs to be started one needs to study. Just go and bring me proof instead of letting someone else do your dirty work. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:41
  • @Wikash_hindu, you go ahead and bring me proof that black hole exists instead of letting scientists do your dirty work – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:42
  • @ram that proof already exists. Just show me the proof of god and you will have all the money of the world. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:43
  • @Wikash_hindu, similarly, proof of God exists. I can show it to you once you show me proof of black hole (not just some picture that scientists claim, they could have just drawn it in photoshop). – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:44
  • @ram this is not a trade. People are honestly interested. If you want to play games go ahead. I am looking forward to see some proof and not play games. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:45
  • @Wikash_hindu, if you honestly want proof, go to chennai, India. I can refer to astrolgers. give them a natal chart and verify yourself. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:47
  • @ram please do it yourself and get everything you want. I'll be sure to personally thank you if you have given the proof. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:47
  • @Wikash_hindu, i have verified it for myself. you can verify it for yourself if you are interested. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:48
  • @Wikash_hindu, do you realize that asking for proof of God exists is the SAME as me asking for proof that black-holes exist ? what exactly are you willing to do in order to verify the proof ? You asked me to go look at a telescope, right ? That is some work which I need to do. Similarly, I ask you to do tapasya for 12 years. That is some work which you need to do. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:50
  • @ram bring a scientist with you or e-mail one detailing how to get the proof. It is easy to do but you refuse it. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:52
  • @Wikash_hindu, i have said that in multiple comments/answers before. practice brahmacharya (strict celibacy) and satya (strict truth) and ahimsa (strict non-violence) for 12 years consecutively, and you will be able to see God. This is the method given by our scientists. Just like if I do Ph.D for 6 years, I can see black-holes. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:53
  • @ram did you see god? What does he look like? – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:55
  • @Wikash_hindu, he looks like Sat-Chit-Ananda. If you don't understand that technical jargon, I invite you to learn sanskrit. Just like if I didn't understand calculus, you would ask me to study maths. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:56
  • @ram sat chit anand are three properties of the soul. Eternal, looking for happines and knowledge. That is not a shape. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 04:57
  • @Wikash_hindu, if you asked me 'what does sun look like', and I said 'bright', will you then say 'that's not a shape' ? why do you assume it is a particular shape ? if i said 'circle' you will ask 'why not square'.. don't make assumptions in an unknown area.. whatever is the truth, you cannot impose conditions on it. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 04:59
  • @Wikash_hindu, btw, 'anand' does not mean looking for happiness, it means hapipness. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 05:00
  • @ram can you describe what shape he has? Which colors? – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 08:07
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    You've seen god yet you have extreme difficulty in describing him. I am doubting your experience. Can't you draw a picture? – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 08:35
  • @Wikash_hindu, he is dark, and bright, and has 4 arms, with weapons. you can look up description of Vishnu. there are lots of pictures of him on internet. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 14:57
  • @ram you saw god like this? How do you know that this was god? – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 15:07
  • @Wikash_hindu, do you already have a definition of God in your mind ? it seems like whatever definition I gave, is not acceptable to you.. in that case, you go ahead and define God and then we can discuss if/how to prove it. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 15:18
  • @ram just answer the questions. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 16:07
  • @Wikash_hindu, just answer the questions. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 17:09
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    @ram stop playing games. The burden of proof is on you. You make the claims. If I were to see Vishnu (according to you god) I would first have to determine if Vishnu is god himself. In the Shiva purana and sb it is mentioned that Shiva is god himsellf. – Wikash_ Apr 15 '19 at 19:19
  • @Wikash_hindu, stop playing games. I already told you what God looks like, and how to see him through penance. I have given you solid proof. But you don't want to accept it. – ram Apr 15 '19 at 20:06
  • @ram How do you know Vishnu is god? I already told you that Shiva is god. – Wikash_ Apr 16 '19 at 06:22
  • @ram I am awaiting your answer. – Wikash_ Apr 18 '19 at 03:55
  • @Wikash_hindu, i already told you that Vishnu is God and the way to prove it. If you don't want to verify it for yourself, you can tell yourself anything and believe anything and be happy. – ram Apr 22 '19 at 03:10
  • @ram I already gave you the proof from scriptures that Shiva is god. How do you respond to that? You are ignoring that fact. – Wikash_ Apr 22 '19 at 07:09
  • Btw there are other references in the scriptures that other deva/devis are god like Adi shakti, Indra, Agni, etc. – Wikash_ Apr 22 '19 at 07:36
  • Sharing a partial relevant answer https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/32149/647 – TheLittleNaruto Apr 24 '19 at 10:04
  • @Wikash_hindu, are you now discussing whether Shiva is God or Vishnu is God ? I thought you did not believe in either. – ram Apr 24 '19 at 15:51
  • @ram I do not but your belief says so . Also you are again avoiding the question. – Wikash_ Apr 24 '19 at 18:30
  • @Wikash_hindu, You never gave me proof that shiva is god. you just mentioned it. You're avoiding the question – ram Apr 24 '19 at 19:46
  • @ram for example see here:https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/19497/where-do-vaishnava-scriptures-declare-shiva-as-supreme-god – Wikash_ Apr 25 '19 at 05:10
  • @Wikash_hindu, again that is not proof. you're just quoting some scripture. If you believe that, why don't you also believe that God exists. – ram Apr 25 '19 at 06:01
  • @ram I mean your belief is conflicting. You say that Vishnu is god and I have shown you the proof that Shiva is god. Please explain. – Wikash_ Apr 25 '19 at 06:40
  • @ram I have found proof in the Shiva Gita that Shiva is the ishwara himself. He says this in chapter 6: – Wikash_ Apr 28 '19 at 19:59
  • Shiva Gita Ch 06: Vibhooti Yoga verse 11-26: O deities! Know that in this entire universe, there is none other than me. I'm the non­dual one. I'm the ancient one. I'm the one who is eternal and I'm the non­eternal too, I'm the one who is blemishless (sinless). I'm the one called as Brahmanaspati. I'm all the directions. I'm savitri, I'm Gayatri. All these male, female and eunuchs also are me. I'm the Thrishtup, Jagati, Anushthup, Pankti chandas. – Wikash_ Apr 28 '19 at 19:59
  • [Continues:] I'm the one known through Vedas, I'm the truth, I'm peace, and I'm respect. I'm the lord of the universe, I'm the oldest, I'm the lord of all, I'm the Bhagawan (supreme personality of godhead),/// etc. – Wikash_ Apr 28 '19 at 20:00
  • @ram: (1) proving the sky is blue (2) whether it rains if an Yagna is conducted. In my opinion, outcome in both the cases is only a PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of the individual , which cannot be explained in words. Suppose you yourself assert them to be true, I can deny them, because I have not had that experiences for myself. So any scripture of any Dharma/religion cannot prove PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. Vedic Literature is basically about SPIRITUAL CONCEPTS, which are again personal experiences. So if you modify your question, calling for clarification, without scriptural base, you may get it – Srimannarayana K V Jun 18 '19 at 11:50
  • @srimannarayanakv, I am saying that EVERY SINGLE proof or claim or fact, whether scientific or religious, boils down to PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.There is not a single scientific statement that can be proved to anyone unless they cooperate with the rules laid down by the scientist. Same thing applies for any statement made by rishis. – ram Jun 18 '19 at 16:51
  • @ram: you are asking for scriptural Base for answer - Can anyone give a single example of a non-falsifiable claim in Vedas, or Vedanga like Jyotisha ? -which is not possible. That is what I am trying to convey – Srimannarayana K V Jun 18 '19 at 17:00
  • @srimannarayanakv, i am trying to convey to you that the same scenario exists in science – ram Jun 18 '19 at 17:35
  • @ram: basically your question has a flaw, in my opinion. You are expecting scriptural Base for the answer , which may not be possible in all situations. If you modify your question in that line, you may get answers. That is what I want to convey. I will not argue with you in this regard. I'm leaving it to your judgement. – Srimannarayana K V Jun 18 '19 at 18:37
  • you are comparing oranges to apples science theories the behaviours of external world its definition is only on prakruthi.. in case of Adyathma its non material right from the go.. its not sthula world.. like Agni means not sthula agni we men the Agni deva that is chethna.. – Prasanna R Nov 30 '20 at 10:30
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    This site has become more of a circle-jerk where people push their own ideas about religion than a place for canonical debate. – Aravind Suresh Thakidayil Dec 07 '20 at 06:12

5 Answers5

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Scientists claim that the underlying notion of a theory is falsifiability i.e. the ability to disprove a statement by performing an experiment laid out by the scientist.

The criterion of falsifiability does not come from science itself or from any scientist, but from the so-called philosophy of science. It was first propounded by Karl Popper, who was not a scientist, but a philosopher. Let us examine falsifiability in detail, by taking into account some well-known scientific theories.

Closely related to the idea of falsifiability is the ability of a scientific theory to make predictions. For example, the General Theory of Relaitivity of Einstein makes a prediction that time is affected due to gravity and it involves gravitational red shift. When Einstein propounded this theory, there was no experiment that was conducted before, that actually showed this. Therefore, this is an example of a prediction from General Relativity. (For simplicity, let us assume this was the only prediction from Einstein’s General Relativity). This prediction, of course, was confirmed by later experiments.

However, what would have happened if a particular experiment had contradicted the prediction? Because the theory was new and completely non-intuitive, perhaps it would have immediately fallen into disrepute? May be. More likely, the experiment would have been repeated by another independent set of researchers, and if this repeated experiment fails to confirm the theory, the theory would seriously start losing steam. At this point, the theory would be just a few more repeated experiments away from being completely discarded. This, is an example of falsifiability.

Yes, the experiments need to be done properly. That is the reason why one single experiment alone cannot be used to completely discard a theory.

The above is a very simplistic example though.

A better example would be classical physics vs moden physics. Both are paradigms. Both paradigms have good experimental evidence and modern physics is closer to the truth. But that does not mean that classical physics is wrong. It is still a good approximation at low velocites and macroscopic levels. Modern Physics, as the more correct understanding of nature, did not replace classical physics overnight, or due to a single experiment supposedly “falsifying” classical physics. It was a slow and gradual process, which started from the realization that there is something about black body radiation that was not properly explained by classical physics. This realization came about probably by the end of 19th century. However, it is not as if classical physics was immediately disproved due to this realization. (Classical physics is still considered a valid approximation even today). The discoveries in quantum mechanics were gradual and took upto the late 1920s to become a coherent theory.

So the understanding that theory X is falsified overnight and/or replaced by theory Y is not realistic. To reiterate this point, there have been recent claims, later proved false, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light_neutrino_anomaly) about discovery of faster than light travel. It is not as if Physicists dumped special theory of relativity overnight due to this claim.

So, is falsifiability really a yard stick for scientific theories? May be yes, to some extent in the past. But in the present day, where experimental science is probably lagging behind theory, this may not deter researchers from pursuing their favorite candidate for a theory-of-everything. The best example of this today is the String theory, which currently has no significant predictions, but is an active research topic for about 40 years. What researchers in String theory are more likely to be concerned, at least currently, is mathematical aspects of the theory. Even when the theory of General Relativity was proposed, it was “made” to have certain mathematical characteristics before it came out.

However, there are other cases, where theories have been modified, either based on new observations or in order to explain some problems. An example is the big bang cosmological model, which did have predictions that were confirmed (microwave background raditation), but which also have undergone subsequent modifications (addition of inflation) later.

So long story short, even though scientific theories tend to be falsifiable in general, science rarely works by over-night dumping of a theory due to contradicting experimental evidence. Theories build up their reputation over time, as reliable predictors of nature, due to experimental evidence, which can be repeated independently. Of course, in the history of science, there have been theories that have been discarded due to contradicting evidence from experiments. One thing to note is that scientific understanding of nature is constantly evolving. There are many things currently which are not yet explainable by any scientific theory. Science acknowledges its current boundaries. However, there is no assumption that these boundaries are permanent and cannot be stretched with the passage of time. So there is no assumption that a phenomenon XYZ is completely and forever beyond science, even if science does not explain it currently.

This, then is the science side of things. What about religion?

Rishis claim that the underlying notion of a shastra is falsifiability i.e. the ability to disprove a statement by performing an experiment laid out by the rishi.

Actually, religion does make and has made many falsifiable claims. And many claims of religion have been falsified (similar situation as for many scientific theories, which have been falsified). Specific to the Hindu religion, I can think of geographical claims about the earth that are present in some puranas that have been falisified. Claims about Rahu or Ketu swallowing the sun or moon during the eclipses have also been falsified. (The reader can similarly note that many Abrahamic religious claims about creation happening about 4000 or 6000 years ago, or flat earth or earth being center of the universe, have similarly been falsified).

Ignoring other religions, and sticking to Hindu religion, a few thoughts will be shared here. It is often difficult to understand what exactly a particular religious claim is. For exmaple, when pointed out that Rahu or Ketu swallowing the sun or moon has been shown to be false, the response from defenders of religion might be of this sort- “These claims should be interpreted differently. Rahu and Ketu represent ignorance and sun or moon represent knowledge or mind and eclipse represents the overcoming of mind by ignorance etc.”

Where as, if science makes a claim that is later falsified, scientists in general do not have a problem acknowledging that the claim was false, the same amount of honesty is not seen in religion. Seldom do religions acknowledge that their claims are false, even if proved outrightly false. It is always a problem of interpretation and never a problem of the religious claim.

Which brings us to the most important difference between science and religion – scientists do not make claims of infallibility, while religious personalities are generally considered infallible by their followers.

Again, there is no necessity for applying science to doubt religious claims, nor is doubting religious claims a monopoly of atheists, agnostics or scientists. Some claims can be doubted by mere application of the most basic skepticism. The Ramayana has Rama, a human being (he is a human incarnation), living for thousands of years. Meanwhile, Ashwatthama, Parashurama etc – all human beings - are immortal. Even an average person will doubt such claims. Whether there was any time when humans lived for thousands of years? Is it possible for a human to be immortal? (Or is all this just a matter of interpretation? How would you interpret these claims away?) How do you verify/falsify such claims? You do meditation and realize that Ashwatthama is still alive? How does that work out? You will be able to see him? How would you verify that he is really Drona’s son and not an imposter? Perhaps this claim of Ashwatthama’s immortality is indeed falsifiable, but I think it is upto the religious people making this claim to show how this is falsifiable. In fact, believing such claims is more taxing on the average mind than questioning them.

Another religious claim is about references in Mahabharata of Arjuna shooting many arrows within a short span of time, without missing the target. Mind you, these are not supernatural claims. Implicit in Mahabharata is the assumption that Arjuna, by practice has achieved mastery over archery and never misses his target. An average human would marvel at this ability of Arjuna. There is no statistical randomness in Arjuna’s aim. Even a fair coin, when tossed a 1000 times, is very unlikely to give exactly 500 heads and 500 tails. But the arrows of Arjuna know no such statistical laws. They always hit the target with 100% certainty, no matter even if the target is small and at a large distance away (though within visible range). It is not even the case that the arrows land very close to the target. They are right on target. And it is not as if this mastery has been achieved due to any mantra-s. It is pure practice, which is why Ekalavya was also able to achieve it. The presence of such claims definitely raises eye-brows. Now how does anyone falsify the claim that it is possible for a human being to achieve this degree of perfection in archery? Mind you, as mentioned before, we are not even in the realm of the supernatural here.

RELIGION: Theory - Yagna produces rain How to disprove it ? - Perform yagna. If rain doesn't pour, theory is disproved. If I am sinful, or I refuse to perform yagna, or don't follow the thousands of rules/regulations required - all those are my faults. If I am faulty, and still claim that rishis are fake, no rishi will change his claim because of some faulty experimenter.

The question answers itself, or at least hints at the answer. Is the claim – Yagna produces rain, falsifiable? If I am sinful, my Yagna does not produce rain. Who is to verify whether or not I am sinful? Who is the person qualified to give certificate of sinfulness or otherwise? If such a person exists, he or she must be all-knowing or at least know everything about everyone, including the ability to read minds. And who will certify that this all-knowing person is all-knowing? Another all-knowing person who would further require a certification from some one else? It is not clear how exactly the claim – Yagna produces rain – is falsifiable. Again, as with most religious claims, this claim is very fluid and needs more clarity.

I can call any scientific statement ('Atoms exist' or 'Vaccines save lives') as 'non-falsifiable' because it is very hard or impossible for me to verify (doing Physics PhD/postdoc for 10 years or doing pharmaceutical double blind trials for 20 years).

Pharma companies don’t try to falsify vaccines. They try to find evidence that a vaccine works. The statistical null-hypothesis, in fact assumes that the vaccine has no effect. So the default position is that the vaccine is useless. It is upto the evidence to show that the vaccine has an effect. This is like many scientific theories. These theories need to build their credibility in the eyes of scientists and this process happens by many experimental confirmations.

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A point was raised by OP about Arjuna's skill in archery being similar to Shakuntala Devi's skill of being a human computer. Response to this -

  1. Compare apples to apples, not oranges. These two skills require different abilities.

  2. There are examples of other human computers like Alexis Lemaire, Willem Klein.

  3. Comparable to human computers in the field of archery are Olympic archery gold medalists. There exists no such archer with 100% accuracy of hitting a (fixed) target, leave alone hitting a moving arrow coming at you.

4

However, it is very simple to deride scientific rationalists using the same argument. I can call any scientific statement ('Atoms exist' or 'Vaccines save lives') as 'non-falsifiable' because it is very hard or impossible for me to verify

Let’s start by your statement -- leaving aside for a moment the polemics -- Can you proof that Atoms exists?

difference in cosmic radiation intensity at ground level at Paris, Palais de La Découverte and in altitude at 2777 m, Pic du Midi in a Phywe PJ45 cloud chamber.

Yes you can. But if I tell you, this stone is very special , I feel that it's different from all others:

enter image description here

you will touch it, you will use all your tools and you will not feel anything.

BUT IF I GIVE YOU THE RIGHT INSTRUMENTS YOU CAN SEE THAT IT HAS A DIFFERENCE:

Thorite in the cloud chamber

Quoting Russel about the flying teapot:

I ought to call myself an agnostic; but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist. I do not think the existence of the Christian God any more probable than the existence of the Gods of Olympus or Valhalla. To take another illustration: nobody can prove that there is not between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit, but nobody thinks this sufficiently likely to be taken into account in practice. I think the Christian God just as unlikely.

Here you have the big paradox between a dogma and a philosophy like Hinduism or Buddhism. How I can proof that the Gods, or Shiva Himself exist? Because I feel it. And because others felt my same feelings before me. This already is a suggestion of an empirical proof.So when You read in Shiva Gita:

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The cause of the action produce the effect, the only proof You can have is within yourself and others. sages are the teachers, but Only with the heart and personal effort united with the right instrument, this goal can be achieved. Without it, anything or everything can be falsified.

Also, I would like to point out that the logic expressed in the question is too much limited for any argument, resenting stupidity. Logic is essential to distinguish any object , but it has attributes that can only be conceived through comparisons and relative details.

For example if I don't know what are the colors and I ask You to describe the color "Yellow", how can You describe the Yellow color without making a comparison to something that i can easily attribute to that color? Yellow without a visual representation means nothing. But it has an intrinsic value connected to my sight.

Another would be to describe the love for your parents or your mother. Can you really describe it without any comparison or logical details?

So if I say : Due to atoms interaction can be formed an energetic Trident? Yes It is possible , but you cannot be aware of it without an instrument.

enter image description here

When an electron of great energy produce a photon by bremsstrahlung, the angular divergence in the direction of motion of the two products may be very small. If by chance, the photon pair may originate at a point which is apparently coincident with the track of the primary electron , it will originate at points separated from the parent electron track by distances less than can be resolved under the microscope, and will thus give rise to 'tridents’.

So the same is for Shiva : If by chance (call it Karma or whatever You want) the Devotion born for Mahadev inside a man or a woman, this can be only related to previous causes of previous births and You cannot be aware of it without the right instrument.

Lucky Pashu
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    nice. Brahma sutras and shiva sutras( one of the kashmiri saivite books) talk about ~300 such energy beams that run the entire universe. the sutras quote actually around 230 or so. they have names for specific important ones. once you research if you could post the names that'd be good :-) – Gopal Anantharaman Dec 08 '20 at 20:51
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    this was not in the Brahma sutra but in Rig veda will have to ferret out the verse numbers – Gopal Anantharaman Dec 09 '20 at 03:14
  • @GopalAnantharaman i would like to know them too! :D – Lucky Pashu Dec 09 '20 at 14:59
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The notation of 'falsifying' lies in finding or showing a contradiction in a certain statement. As per OP:

SCIENCE: Theory - Sky is blue How to disprove it ? - Open your eyes. If sky is green, theory is disproved.

This small example is a fraction of the entire process of science. Science not always begins by a claim, it usually starts with a observation and then finding the underlying reason for the observed. If a certain theory is falsified we search a new to explain the observed. (As what happened during the discovering the structure of atom, the plum pudding model was falsified by Rutherford's scattring experiments, and with the help of the experimental results he purposed his own, science needs experiment to deduce and even to assume) what you are suggesting is logic having two outcomes true or false.

Coming to next part. As per OP:

Theory - Yagna produces rain How to disprove it ? - Perform yagna. If rain doesn't pour, theory is disproved.

Although the first one is a perfect example of 'falsifiablity', I dont think the second example is. Its always: ' perform this yagna so the rain will come'. The first is the process and the next is its result. It has been never said to experiment with yagna to see if rain comes or not. This thing is a result of forcefully applying 'logic'. In fact the whole aspect of 'shastra' is non-falsiable. Secondly the performing yagna and then it rains is not a claim, insted a methodology, a practice.

If I was to compare vedas to something in science it would never be the underlying theory but insted the application.

Science wants underlying mechanism, which happens through some mediators which are not detectable in case of the practices given by vedas, tantras etc. The largest range of experiments directly done are on astrology. Why? The reason is its closeness with astronomy. While there is a contradiction in first place itself. (See: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/43515/21353 As in the answer Rahu and ketu are not bodies to produce any 'force' or effect on someone). Practices in tantras or even astrological remedies are not verifiable, as such the effect directly are over the person's fate. As far as its concerned a certain degree of secracy is necessary for the things to really take place. The 'falsifiablity' is not always applicable.

Second
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There are two kinds of 'religions', Abrahamic faiths and Dharmas. The Abrahamic faiths are based on blind belief. These systems are far from science.

Hindu and Bouddha Dharma is of the second kind which privileges direct perception over blind belief.

Religion is not about belief but about direct perception.

"There are certain religious facts which, as in external science, have to be perceived and upon them religion will be built. Of course, the extreme claim that you must believe every dogma of a religion is degrading to the human mind. The man who asks you to believe everything, degrades himself, and, if you believe, degrades you too. The sages of the world have only the right to tell us that they have analyzed their minds and have found these facts, and if we do the same we shall also believe, and not before. That is all there is in religion."

The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, 2:163

"The proof, therefore, of the Vedas is just the same as the proof of this table before me, pratyaksa, direct perception. This I see with the senses, and the truths of spirituality we also see in a superconscious state of the human soul."

The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, 3:253

Gautama Buddha said, "This I have said to you O Kalamas, but you may accept it, not because it is a report, not because it is a tradition, not because it is so said in the past, not because it is given from the scriptures, not for the sake of discussion, not for the sake of particular method, not for the sake of careful consideration, not for the sake of forbearing with wrong views, not because it appears to be suitable, not because your preceptor is a recluse, but if you yourselves understand this is so, meritorious and blameless, and, when accepted, is for benefit and happiness, then you may accept it."

Angutarra iii.653

The Upanishads also say that direct knowledge of God and not just belief is necessary for moksha. The Upanishadic claims can be challenged.

When men shall roll up space as if it were a piece of leather, then will there be an end of sorrow, apart from Knowing God.

Svetasvatara Upanishad VI.20

So what is the answer to this question?

Science is different from the Abrahamic faiths since one can challenge scientific claims and one cannot challenge claims of Abrahamic faiths.

Science is similar to Hindu and Bouddha Dharma since both systems accept that the claims made by them need to be verified. If a person finds after long spiritual effort no proof of the claims made by the Vedas then he is free to reject the spiritual claims of the scripture. However, there is a difference between Science and Dharmas. Science is a third person empirical search for truth while Dharmas are first person empirical searches for truth.

Pradip Gangopadhyay
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  • so, a person accepting the tenet of Vedas that varna is determined by birth, because he has either personally (first-person) understood the law of karma & rebirth through tapas, or even recalled his past life like Vivekananda did, or because he trusts other expert rishis who did the same through tapas - that would be no different from a scientist doing the same ? – ram Nov 30 '20 at 18:24
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    ‘When men shall roll up space as if it were a piece of leather, then will there be an end of sorrow, apart from Knowing God. Svetasvatara Upanishad VI.20’ . This is a true statement – Gopal Anantharaman Dec 01 '20 at 02:57
  • Varna is not determined by birth in an endogamous group according to the Vedas. Vedas are saying that Varna is determined by conduct in previous birth which creates the Karma and guna necessary for varna in the present birth. Your question is can one accept a scriptural concept through first person experience or because of trust in the claims of other experts. One's own experience of course removes all doubts. If one has no personal experience then one can provisionally accept the claims made by the others subject to one's personal verification. [To Be Continued] – Pradip Gangopadhyay Dec 01 '20 at 05:24
  • A scientist will also trust one's own experiment or provisionally accept the claims of other experts in the absence of his own experiment. A scientific theory always has a provisional status and might have to be changed in the light of new anomalous data. There is no absolute certainty in science. In that respect there is some similarity between the Dharmas and science. A scriptural claim in Dharma is accepted provisionally subject to personal verification. There is no dogma in Dharma unlike the dogmatic Abraham faiths. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Dec 01 '20 at 05:29
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    @GopalAnantharaman - can you post the original Sanskrit text ? I don't take English translations of eternal Vedas too seriously. – ram Dec 02 '20 at 03:51
  • So, you agree that varna is determined by conduct in previous birth ? Good. Now the immediate follow up is - which is the determined varna for a person ? Who decides it ? The answer from Vedas is that You belong to Your parents Varna. Your birth to Your parents is a result of Your Karma in Your previous birth(s). Thus following Your parents' varna is the best course of action for Your spiritual upliftment and Your society's wellbeing. – ram Dec 02 '20 at 03:57
  • The parent's varna is not decided by birth in an endogamous group. The last name of a person does not tell us anything about his varna. The parent's varna is also decided by conduct in the previous birth of the parent. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Dec 02 '20 at 04:31
  • Moreover just because a parent starts life with a particular varna does not mean that he cannot go up or down in the varna hierarchy through good or bad karma. So blindly following a parent is not always a wise action. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Dec 02 '20 at 04:37
  • Prahlad became a spiritual genius even though his family background was not very good from the spiritual point of view. Ratnakar morphed from a dacoit to a celebrated poet of scripture through his own effort. So just following the conduct (varna) of a parent or family may not be the best thing to do. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Dec 02 '20 at 12:28
  • @ram. Svetashware Upanishad

    Sixth adhyaya 139. Only when the impossible becomes possible, such as the sky being rolled up by men, will misery cease, unless God has been realised in the heart. Miseries and sorrows will come to an end only when one realises God. If anybody strives to free himself from miseries, without realising God, all his efforts shall be as useless as the attempt to roll up the sky. This is the drift of this verse.

    – Gopal Anantharaman Dec 04 '20 at 07:04
  • @ram, from the Bible. Isiah 34:4,

    All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree

    Revelation 6:14

    Revelation 6:14, NIV: "The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." ... Revelation 6:14, KJV: "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

    – Gopal Anantharaman Dec 04 '20 at 07:05
  • @ram from Kuran. The holy verse: God be he exalted says: (And the Day when We shall roll up the heaven like a scroll rolled up for books. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise binding upon Us. Truly, We shall do it) [Surat Al-Anbiya, verse: 104]. – Gopal Anantharaman Dec 04 '20 at 07:06
  • Question is which one above was first to talk about sky being rolled up – Gopal Anantharaman Dec 04 '20 at 07:08
  • @PradipGangopadhyay - everybody knows the story of Vishvamitra's transformation from kshatriya to brahmana, of valmiki from thief to poet. But these are 1-in-trillion rare exceptions. They cannot be the basis of society. It is highly misleading to tell people otherwise. My question still remains - a child is born today - At what age is his varna decided, and by whom ? Which occupation should he follow ? If this question is not answered by the age of 7 (which is the ordained age for upanayana for brahmins), societal order falls apart. So, how and who determines a child's varna ? – ram Dec 08 '20 at 06:18
  • @GopalAnantharaman - yes, hilarious. Everybody thought Gravity was a force until Einstein said 'space-time is curved', and all you 'scientists' lapped it up without understanding a word of it. I bet the same scientists who read English translations of Purusha Sukta will also say 'If Brahman has 1000 (sahasra) heads, that means he must have 2000 eyes, not 1000 eyes, how neanderthal LOL'. Question is which scientist will be first to accept scriptures in their intended meaning. – ram Dec 08 '20 at 06:19
  • @ram Everybody thought Gravity was a force until Einstein said 'space-time is curved', and all you 'scientists' lapped it up without understanding a word of it. Can you justify your claim that scientists "lapped it up" without understanding a word of it (general relativity)? On what basis are you making this claim? –  Dec 13 '20 at 14:24
  • @person - i put 'scientists' in quotes to refer to people like you and me who are arguing on the internet, not the real scientists, who if u ask them, are probably more religious, or at least, honest in their ignorance about soul and god. – ram Dec 13 '20 at 19:23
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There are certain scriptures in Hinduism which directly support Science - I will mention few of them for the sake of it.

  • Earth is a Globe : This globe of earth, the seat of all the Suras and Asuras, and surrounded by the luminous sphere (of time) in the manner of a walnut covered by its hard crust, subsists under His command.(Yoga Vasista 1.26.34)

  • Evolution of Life : I remember that once upon a time there was nothing on this earth, neither trees and plants, nor even mountains. For a period of eleven thousand [great] years the earth was covered by lava. In those days there was neither day nor night below the polar region: for in the rest of the earth neither the sun nor the moon shone. Only one half of the polar region was illumined. [Later] apart from the polar region the rest of the earth was covered with water. And then for a very long time the whole earth was covered with forests, except the polar region. Then there arose great mountains, but without any human inhabitants. For a period of ten thousand years the earth was covered with the corpses of the asuras.”(Yoga Vasista 6.1.21)

  • Spherical Earth, Space & Spatial directions: These different motions appeared to them with respect to their own situations, as they saw them in their different sides. Here there were no ups and downs and no upside or below, nor any going forward or backward. Here there are no such directions as men take to be by the position of their bodies.There is but one indefinite space in nature, as there is but one consciousness in all beings; yet everything moves in its own way, as wayward boys take their own course.There is but one space enveloping all things, and the worlds which are seen in the infinite and indiscernible womb of vacuity, are as worms moving on the surface of water. All these bodies that move about in the world by their want of freedom (i. e. by the power of attraction), are thought to be up and down by our position on earth.So when there is a number of ants on an earthen ball, all its sides are reckoned below which are under their feet, and those as above which are over their backs.Such is this ball of the earth in one of these worlds, covered by vegetables and animals moving on it,and by devas, daityas and men walking upon it.(Yoga Vasista 3.30.6-13)

  • Sun never Sets/Rises : Whilst the Sun, who is the discriminator of all hours, shines in one continent in midday, in the opposite Dwípas, Maitreya, it will be midnight: rising and setting are at all seasons, and are always (relatively) opposed in the different cardinal and intermediate points of the horizon. When the sun becomes visible to any people, to them he is said to rise; when he disappears from their view that is called his setting. There is in truth neither rising nor setting of the sun, for he is always; and these terms merely imply his presence and his disappearance.(Vishnu Purana Book 2, Ch 8, p 218-219 by HH Wilson)

  • Everything is made of Matter and All Matter Decays : Things that are called mountains are made of rocks, those that are called trees are made of wood, and those that are made of flesh are called animals, and man is the best of them. But they are all made of matter, and doomed to death and decay.(Yoga Vasistha 1.27.33)

  • 10 Planetary spheres : They passed in a moment beyond the regions of the earth, air, fire, water, and vacuum, and the tracks of the ten planetary spheres.They reached the boundless space, whence the universe appeared as an egg(Yoga Vasista 3.30.1-2)

We can also find geological erosions, gravitational law of attraction, paralles to Newton's laws(In Kannada Sutras) etc. Scholars like Carl Sagan say " It is the only religion in which the timescales correspond, no doubt by accident, to those of modern scientific cosmology. It’s cycles run from an ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma-8.64 billion years long. Longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang and there’re much longer timescales still." However the purpose of reading Hindu texts is to understand Nature of reality of Self, God and Status of Universe. This is the core of Hinduism . It is called Metaphysics and not “science”. Metaphysics is defined as the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between potentiality and actuality. Purpose of metaphysics is to ensure that an individual orients in the practice of Dharma ie that which leads to the highest common good. That which supports, that which holds together the people of the universe is Dharma. If there is contradiction between scientific evidence and any statement in the Hindu scriptures, then the scriptural statement must be rejected.

  1. Scriptures are no scriptures if they cannot stand the test of reason.(MB Santi CXLII)
  2. The remark of a child is to be accepted, if it is in accordance with reason; but the remark of even Brahma Himself, the creator of the world is to be rejected like a piece of straw if it does not accord with reason(Yoga Vasistha 2.18)
  3. Even a hundred statements of Sruti to the effect that fire is cold and non-luminous won't prove valid. If it does make such a statement, its import will have to be interpreted differently. Otherwise, validity won't attach to it. Nothing in conflict with the means of valid cognition or with its own statements may be imputed to Sruti(Shankaracharya on BG 18.66)
  4. Sense perception is its own standard of truth. It cannot be negated by inference or Scripture. The moon’s small size and other such erroneous perceptions are accountable as being due to distance and other conditions. There is no reason to reject the evidence of sense-perception regarding the existence of a world external to our minds.(Tattvodyota of Madhavacharya )
Sethu Srivatsa Koduru
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  • Of course there are many scriptures across all religions that might agree with science or more better, science might agree with them. And similarly, there are certain scriptures across all religions with claims of stupendously exaggerated flabbergasted kind of nonsense which can only be a work of primitive beliefs rather than some divine entities. Because, if the words in any religious books are to be considered infallible from all perspectives, they must be really be infallible across all perspectives. And more or less, all religious works, are definitely fallible via scientific reason. – Vivikta Mar 14 '21 at 11:30
  • I couldn't find your verse on Yoga Vashistha to be correct. https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/yoga-vasistha-english/d/doc118545.html – Haridasa Mar 11 '24 at 02:28
  • Also, Vishnu Purana does talk about the sun's movement, but it also talks about the stillness of the sun's presence possibly alluding to the separation of planet and deity. – Haridasa Mar 11 '24 at 02:42