1

In geeta 2.43 it cautions people not to get attracted to flowery words of vedas.

What are these flowery words which are talked upon ?

When vedas.themselves prescribe rituals then what is the point in cautioning people?

Rakesh Joshi
  • 19,220
  • 6
  • 50
  • 152
  • 5
    who said it is 'bad' to follow them ? all they say is don't get attracted to them and waste your energy there because there is something higher. – ram Dec 20 '17 at 04:37
  • @iammilind if you cant find few examples.then its not a question for you. No easy pickings sorry. – Rakesh Joshi Dec 20 '17 at 09:37
  • 1
    The purpose of all Vedic knowledge is to get released of all karma and to stop samsara so that our material existence comes to an end. Anything stated in the Vedas that doesn't serve that purpose can be considered as "flowery words" which brings about a continuation of our material existence and samsara. That's why Lord Krishna discouraged Arjuna to be attracted to those flowery words. So "flowery words" refer to the verses in the Vedic Samhitas which encourage fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, sense gratification, opulent life and so forth. ... – brahma jijnasa Dec 21 '17 at 02:58
  • 1
    ... All that brings about a continuation of our material existence and samsara. Therefore it's discouraged by Lord Krishna. – brahma jijnasa Dec 21 '17 at 02:59
  • @brahmajijnasa the purpose of vedas is life in a whole. Dharma artha kama moksha. How do you say moksha alone is the goal ? – Rakesh Joshi Dec 21 '17 at 09:25
  • 1
    Well, for some people ascending to material heaven and sense gratification is the only goal of life. Those people are missing the ultimate goal of life, which is to get to the Lord Krishna per the Bhagavad gita. Those people Lord Krishna called avipaścitaḥ "men of small knowledge" in verse 2.42. – brahma jijnasa Dec 28 '17 at 06:02
  • @brahmajijnasa but why should vedas talk as per bhagvat gita ? Its the other way around.... – Rakesh Joshi Dec 28 '17 at 09:05
  • 1
    Well, for Vedantists (I belong to) it doesn't matter which way round it is, because Vedic Samhitas, Upanishads, and Bhagavad gita teach the same eternal Vedic truth or wisdom, ie sanatana dharma. – brahma jijnasa Dec 28 '17 at 09:41
  • @brahmajijnasa if its same thing then howcome vedas are traigunya vishaya and geeta is beyond? – Rakesh Joshi Dec 28 '17 at 09:42
  • 2
    Gita teaches how to transcend, ie how to go beyond temporary material existence, namely how to get moksha. That level of existence, moksha, is beyond the influence of the three gunas of material nature. On the other hand Samhitas rarely teach about moksha, hence they mainly teach how to rise to material heaven and thus they are not beyond the influence of the material gunas. The material heaven is influenced by the material gunas just like anything material is, but moksha is not! – brahma jijnasa Dec 28 '17 at 10:29
  • @brahmajijnasa can you prove that vedas teach about material heaven? – Rakesh Joshi Dec 28 '17 at 19:54
  • Perhaps I can, but I think It would be better for you to ask about it in a separate question. And you still didn't say when I asked you do you accept the quotations from the Upanishads, or you want only verses from the Samhitas? – brahma jijnasa Dec 29 '17 at 12:51
  • @brahmajijnasa what upanishad is that? First it was ten then fiftren then 108 and now they are close to 200 – Rakesh Joshi Dec 29 '17 at 12:52
  • Well, Vedantists Shankara and Ramanuja used to quote just some Upanishads (perhaps between 10 and 20 the most), and then Madhva quoted much more than those two acaryas. I would try to quote those Upanishads which they quoted. Is that Ok with you? – brahma jijnasa Dec 29 '17 at 13:00
  • @brahmajijnasa it is ok but i don't accept all upanishad quoted by them. Only ten are believed to be genuine. Further samhita is the actual vedas and upanishad are technically not a Veda. – Rakesh Joshi Dec 29 '17 at 13:02
  • 1
    Every Upanishad which some Vedantist used to quote he believed to be genuine! I think that when Shankara or Ramanuja or anyone quoted from some Upanishad, he believed that Upanishad to be true or genuine! And they all quoted more than just 10. And they all believed Upanishads are Vedic texts, apaurusheya and Sruti. – brahma jijnasa Dec 29 '17 at 13:13
  • 1
    @brahmajijnasa they believed but i do not believe. Please see my thread on sanyasa upanishad for example. So every text with a name upanishad is not a shruti. Upanishad were not revealed as the vedas so they are not core part of the shruti. But you can cite your references that vaikuntham alone is eternal heaven and not others. Or about samhitas being traigunya vishaya – Rakesh Joshi Dec 29 '17 at 13:18

1 Answers1

3

The exact verse in Sankara's commentary on the Gita says (Swami Gambhirananda translator):

...those undiscerning people who utter this flowery talk--which promises birth as a result of rites and duties, and is full of various special rites meant for the attainment of enjoyment and affluence--, they remain engrossed in the utterance of the Vedas and declare that nothing else exists, their minds full of desires and they have heaven as a goal.

and Sankara's commentary:

...yam puspitam vacam, flowery talk, which is beautiful like a tree in bloom, pleasant to hear, and appears to be (meaningful) sentences;...

So why do the Vedas, meaning the karma-kanda portion, teach these rituals? It is not that these rituals are inherently bad or good, the Vedas teach men those things which will bring them to the four goals or ideals of life – dharma, artha, kama, and moksha. Swami Nikhilananda writes in his Introduction to his book Self-Knowledge (a translation of Shankaracharya’s Atmabodha), pp 21-2:

…Dharma is righteousness; it is the law of inner growth and the basis of man’s actions. It is in harmony with man’s spiritual evolution. Therefore by following dharma one attains success in all action. By negating dharma one brings confusion into one’s life and retards the clock of progress. Dharma is not a sort of duty imposed from outside, but a sense of righteousness, integrity, and honour with which one is born as a result of one’s past actions. So every man has his own dharma, in consequence of which he reacts in his own unique way to the outside world. His education and environment give to this basic life-form only an outer shape. By fulfilling his dharma a man marches along the path of progress until he attains the supreme dharma of all beings, namely, the realization of Truth.

Artha, or wealth, is a legitimate goal of pursuit at a certain stage of man’s life. It is, with most people, an effective mode of self-expression and an important means of establishing fellowship with others. But wealth must be acquired by according to dharma, righteousness; otherwise, instead of serving a spiritual purpose, it will aggravate greed and lust for power and ultimately be a cause of misery.

Kama is the fulfillment of sensuous and esthetic desire. Craving for sense pleasure is present in many sensitive persons to whom enjoyment of wealth appears gross and therefore inadequate. But Kama, too, must be guided by dharma; otherwise it degenerates into voluptuousness.

The satisfaction derived from the pursuit of dharma, artha, and kama is neither deep nor abiding. There remains a hunger of the soul that can be fulfilled only by the attainment of moksha, or Freedom. The first three ideals belong to the material world, and the happiness derived from them is therefore ephemeral and illusory. But the ideal of Freedom can be realized only in the realm of Spirit, and the Bliss that follows is everlasting. Therefore the realization of moksha, Freedom, is the coping-stone of human life; and the pursuit of righteousness, wealth, and esthetic satisfaction only support it.

The karma-kanda is meant to teach man those things necessary for the attainment of dharma, artha, and kama; the jnana-kanda, the Upanishads, are meant to teach man those things necessary to attain moksha. To follow ONLY those portions of the Vedas to attain only artha and kama are bad to one’s eventual karma; the following of all the Vedas and through them attain all four ideals, is the real purport of the Vedas and are meant to guide man through all the stages of life.

In his translation of the Mahanarayana Upanishad, Swami Vimalananda writes in his commentary to verse I.53 (p 72):

The Vedas are meant to generate in those who follow them certain potencies which help in all situations and conditions. The highest ideal held forth by the Vedas to those who have completed the discipline prescribed in them is realization of the Infinite Self dwelling in all creatures as the reality behind their finite existences [Gita 7.30, 6.30]. Those who attained to the goal have no friends or foes. They see equally God in all [Gita 5.18-19]. They are extremely rare. Therefore the Vedas have only a luminously precious fraction describing them. The largest part of the Vedas is meant for the common man who is tossed by likes and dislikes. Failure to recognize the fears and hopes of the natural man make a scripture unrealistic. Ideals unconnected with the practical needs of human nature cannot enter into the daily life of the ordinary man. To suppose that the Vedas always deal with high philosophy and ethics only will be a delusion. Mystical formulas like the present one [this verse] are found on many passages of the Vedas. They are given to propitiate friendly agencies and to suppress the enemies. Without peace and prosperity, santi and pusti, higher religious aspiration is impossible. That is why we find in the Vedas prayers like this one [verse] which deal with the lower purusarthas.

And in verse I.6 it says:

Sages declare: That alone is right and That alone is true. That alone is the venerable Brahman contemplated by the wise. Acts of worship and social utility also are that Reality. That alone being the navel of the universe, sustains manifoldly the universe which arose in the past and which springs to existence at present. [see also Gita 10.41-42]

Swami Vishwananda
  • 24,140
  • 2
  • 34
  • 78
  • 2
    When you can selectively select moksha portion then its not wrong and when someone selectively adopts kama or artha or dharma he becomes bad ? Why should mutt people decide.it? Let vedas say that doing only yajnas.is bad . its kind of veda ninda only to attract masses towards.mutts and vedanta – Rakesh Joshi Dec 20 '17 at 09:49
  • 2
    @RakeshJoshi, again, nobody said it's 'bad'. If you attract people towards gold, they will lose interest in silver. That's all there is to it. It is not veda-ninda. Many times, the opposite of one truth is a higher truth. If you want to attract people towards silver, feel free. – ram Dec 20 '17 at 17:25
  • @RakeshJoshi So you think Lord Krishna was veda-ninda "despiser of the Vedas" because he stated the verses of the Bhagavad gita 2.42-43? https://www.vedabase.com/en/bg/2/42-43 – brahma jijnasa Dec 21 '17 at 03:21
  • 2
    The Mundakopanishad (part of the vedas) does say that those ignorant people who follow the yagnas only do not get Moksha. Now it is up to you to choose whether Moksha is needed or not. And also you could say that the Upanishads (part of Vedas) do Veda-ninda, since they call those who do only yaagas as ignorant, and more than one upanishad expresses this thought. – user1952500 Dec 21 '17 at 03:42
  • 1
    @user1952500 upanishad is not part of vedas technically – Rakesh Joshi Dec 21 '17 at 09:22
  • 1
    @brahmajijnasa not krishna but it can be an interpolation. – Rakesh Joshi Dec 21 '17 at 09:22
  • 1
    @RakeshJoshi As far as I know there is no proof that anything is interpolated in the Bhagavad gita editions the acaryas such as Shankara, Madhva, Ramanuja, etc, have commented upon. – brahma jijnasa Dec 28 '17 at 05:44
  • @RakeshJoshi Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, and Upanishads are all part of the Vedas. – Keshav Srinivasan Dec 28 '17 at 09:52
  • @KeshavSrinivasan then why dont you answer it ? Already someone has given the answer with references. – Rakesh Joshi Dec 28 '17 at 10:00
  • 2
    @brahmajijnasa madhwa thinks that both mbh and Ramayana are.interpolated. so bg is part of mbh right ? KM Ganguli says santi parva is also an interpolation – Rakesh Joshi Dec 31 '17 at 19:07
  • @RakeshJoshi Well, it could be that Madhva said so about Mbh, but I think he didn't say exactly which verses are interpolated, and as far as I know he didn't say anything is interpolated in the Gita. By the way, there is a critical edition of Mbh published by the BORI institute, and according to them there are no interpolations in the Gita. Also to be noted the Mundaka Upanishad says the lower knowledge includes knowledge of Vedas, phonetics, grammar, ... the knowledge of sacrifices and rituals. And the higher knowledge is the knowledge of Brahman. ... – brahma jijnasa Jan 03 '18 at 10:50
  • @RakeshJoshi ... See also what the same Upanishad says in the chapter "Sacrifices, oblations and pious works are useless, knowledge useful" at Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundaka_Upanishad#The_higher_knowledge_versus_lower_knowledge_-_First_Mundakam It seems Lord Krishna was referring to that when He spoke Gita verses 2.42-43. – brahma jijnasa Jan 03 '18 at 10:50
  • @RakeshJoshi There is one nice website on which you can see and analyze text of the Bhagavad gita. See verses 2.42-44 at http://www.bhagavadgita.eu/en/?p=636 If you click there at the analysis and then at the textual variants tab, you will see there are just text variants of those verses according to BORI, and there are no interpolations, namely the verses are authentic. There you can also see that acaryas Shankara, Ramanuja, and others commented on those verses, which means they did not consider those verses to be interpolations! – brahma jijnasa Jan 03 '18 at 11:15
  • This is upto you if you want to go by vedas or upanishad. Elsewhere it is discussed what exactly are vedas. If the portion of vedas is useless then they should admit that yes we denounce vedas. Like what buddha did. – Rakesh Joshi Jan 03 '18 at 20:50
  • https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/18806/7853 – Rakesh Joshi Jan 03 '18 at 20:53
  • @RakeshJoshi "If the portion of vedas is useless ..." Nobody says that the Vedas or sacrifices in them are useless or wrong, however people who do not understand the ultimate purpose of life, Vedas and rites to be Lord Krishna are "men of small knowledge" per Lord Krishna's own words. BORI is not an authority in the field of Vedic knowledge for the orthodox Hindus. Their opinion whether the Gita is older or recent scripture is not relevant for Hindus. – brahma jijnasa Jan 03 '18 at 21:46
  • @brahmajijnasa you quoted upanishad that sacrifice oblations etc are useless. But geeta itself glorifies yajna in many places including fourth chapter. So first decide that whether or not sacrifice are useless or useful ? If useful then what is the useless portion of vedas ? – Rakesh Joshi Jan 03 '18 at 23:22
  • @RakeshJoshi I think you didn't get the point. It's not that the Mundaka Up says sacrifices are useless in itself, but the point is that sacrifices are useless to those people who think that those sacrifices and ultimate purpose of life is to rise to perishable heaven and enjoy there. Those people Mund. Up. and Lord Krishna call "men of small knowledge" because the purpose of life is to use those sacrifices as a service to satisfy Krishna who is Brahman, and to attain Him, Brahman, Lord Krishna in the imperishable world of eternal moksha. That's the point. – brahma jijnasa Jan 04 '18 at 15:14
  • @brahmajijnasa then please make clear which portion is useless ? It is clear that moksha is immortality in the vedas. – Rakesh Joshi Jan 04 '18 at 20:53
  • See the bg interpolation link and check answer. We can discuss this in a chat room... – Rakesh Joshi Jan 04 '18 at 20:59