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I've read in one of the Upanishads that at the "beginning" of the universe sattva, rajas and tamas were in balance. But for some unknown reason the balance was disturbed and this is cause of the universe.

Unfortunately I don't remember which one - It must be described somewhere in the Upanishads or Vedas how this sattva-rajas-tamas are interconvertible? And if so where?

Tezz
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onephys
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  • What do you mean by interconversion of gunas? Gunas are attributes. They are characteristics of a person or thing. If the person changes his attribute, then we say his guna has changed from tamas to satva, etc. If that's what you mean as interconvertible? – Sai Sep 12 '16 at 16:42
  • I think that the gunas don't just apply psychologically to a person, but actually to the universe itself. So by conversion i mean how does one change from sattva to rajas or how does rajas change to sattva etc. – onephys Sep 12 '16 at 17:16
  • Impossible! Bramhan and Bramhan alone is material and Efficient cause of Universe, that is what every Vedanta Acharya concludes from Bramha Sutras of Bhadarayana. Even all of these four causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_causes is Bramhan. Sattva, Rajas, Tamas all are originated from Bramhan, and after Kalpanta(doomsday) it goes back to Bramhan the Single Origin of Everything. Read this for more clear proof http://sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48035.htm – Yogi Sep 12 '16 at 18:04

2 Answers2

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I think you are talking about 4th Prapathaka of Maitrayanai Upanishad. Maitrayania Upanishad is one of the important Upanishad.

Maitrayania Upanishad 4th Prapathaka states:

It was all Tamas – then impelled by the Supreme, it became uneven –Rajas compelled, becomes uneven. This all came out of Sattva, the conscious being, in every person, indicated by thought, determination
and conceit. Prajapati spoke about it. The first bodies are Brahma etc. He is the aspects of Tamas, Rudra of Sattva. Vishnu became three-fold, eight-fold etc., unlimited and moves among creatures – the support of all creatures and their lord, inside and outside them.

One doesn't need to get surprised by seeing that it is saying it was Tamasa in the beginning. In the present situation, when people see the word Tamasa it is associated in bad light. However this is not true. RigVeda 10.129 is Nasadiya Sukta, which is also called "Hymn of Creation". In it's third verse it states:

तम आसीत्तमसा गूहळमग्रे प्रकेतं सलिलं सर्वाऽइदम् |
तुच्छ्येनाभ्वपिहितं यदासीत्तपसस्तन्महिनाजायतैकम् ॥३॥

Tamas (Darkness) there was: at first concealed in tamas (darkness) this All was indiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.

Taittariya Aranyaka YajurVeda 10th Prapathaka and Svetasvatara Upanishad 4.5 state:

अजामेकां लोहितशुक्लकृष्णां बह्वीः प्रजाः सृजमानां सरूपाः ।
अजो ह्येको जुषमाणोऽनुशेते जहात्येनां भुक्तभोगामजोऽन्यः ॥ ५॥

There is one unborn prakriti−red, white and black−which gives birth to many creatures like itself. An unborn individual soul becomes attached to it and enjoys it, while another unborn individual soul leaves it after his enjoyment is completed."

Here, the terms Red, White and Black are intrepreted as three qualities of Nature. Ie. Satva, Rajas and Tamasa.

And as quoted in earlier "It was all Tamas – then impelled by the Supreme, it became uneven..." So, it is not unknown cause. It is due to desire of Supreme Tatwa get interconverted.

Tezz
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    thank you. this is exactly what I was looking for. Maybe I formulated my question incorrectly. – onephys Sep 13 '16 at 08:45
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There cannot be any other Material and/or efficient cause for the universe other than Bramhan, so there is no question of Universe being created by Guna imbalance.

Shri Krishna on origin of Gunas Bhagwad Gita Chapter 7 verse 12

ये चैव सात्विका भावा रजस्तमष्च ये।

मत्त एवेति तान्विद्धि न त्वम् तेषु ते मयि॥७.१२॥

Ye chaiva saattvikaa bhaavaa raajasaastaamasaashcha ye;

Matta eveti taanviddhi na twaham teshu te mayi.

Meaning:

Know that all those states of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas have their origin in Me alone. But I am not in them; they are in Me.

Since Bramhan is Eternal so is Prakriti Pradhana as Prkriti and Jivas reside in Bramhan.

Gita Bhasya by Adi Shankracharya


Every Vedanta Acharya for E.g Adi Shankaracharya, Bhagwad Ramanujachrya agree on this point, that Bramhan is material as well as Efficient cause of the universe.

I will from quote Adi Shankaracharya's commentary and then Bhagwad Ramanujacharya's commentary on BramhSutra by Bhagwan VedVyasa to justify my point.

1) Adi Shankaracharya Bhasya

(Brahman is that) from which the origin, &c. (i.e. the origin, subsistence, and dissolution) of this (world proceed).

The term, &c. implies subsistence and re-absorption. That the origin is mentioned first (of the three) depends on the declaration of Scripture as well as on the natural development of a substance. Scripture declares the order of succession of origin, subsistence, and dissolution in the passage, Taittiriya. Up. III, I, 'From whence these beings are born,' &c. And with regard to the second reason stated, it is known that a substrate of qualities can subsist and be dissolved only after it has entered, through origination, on the state of existence.

You can read it here

2) Bhagwad Ramanujacharya's Sri Bhasya

(Brahman is that) from which the origin, &c., of this (world proceed).

The expression 'the origin', &c., means 'creation, subsistence, and re-absorption'. The 'this' (in 'of this') denotes this entire world with its manifold wonderful arrangements, not to be fathomed by thought, and comprising within itself the aggregate of living souls from Brahmâ down to blades of grass, all of which experience the fruits (of their former actions) in definite places and at definite times.

'That from which,' i.e. that highest Person who is the ruler of all; whose nature is antagonistic to all evil; whose purposes come true; who possesses infinite auspicious qualities, such as knowledge, blessedness, and so on; who is omniscient, omnipotent, supremely merciful; from whom the creation, subsistence, and reabsorption of this world proceed--he is Brahman: such is the meaning of the Sûtra.

The definition here given of Brahman is founded on the text Taitt. Up. III, 1, 'Bhrigu Vâruni went to his father Varuna, saying, Sir, teach me Brahman', &c., up to 'That from which these beings are born, that by which when born they live, that into which they enter at their death, try to know that: that is Brahman.'

Sri Bhasya

Taittiriya Upanishad III,1

That from whence these beings are born, that by which, when born, they live, that into which they enter at their death, try to know that. That is Brahman.

Yogi
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  • @Tezz I have never said that Pradhana is not eternal. Even Vishitadvaitin's Think that Prakriti or Pradhana is eternal she is Devi Laxmi(which in turn is Jeevatman from Thenakalai prespective and is eternal as every jeevatman is in vedanta). But the ultimate source of her power(gunas and whatever she creates as pradhana) is Bramhan Shriman Narayana. On the point of Yoga, Sankhya etc these philosophies are rejected by logic and citing Shabda Pramana. Which is standard for every debate, if you don't believe in that I am afraid I debate is not possible with you it will be a fight. – Yogi Sep 13 '16 at 11:25
  • @Tezz If that 'Another perspective' is clearly rejected by both mine and your Acharya then why do you want to keep up with that prespective. Supporting false information harms the pious people more than evildoers. I simply don't agree with Kapila, Kanada, and Patanjali, because for me Veda is the biggest shabda pramana. Adi Shankaracharya and Bhagwad Ramanujacharya have given enough pramana like Taittiryia Up III 1, in Bramha Sutra Bhasya and Sri Bhasya to invalidate these philosophies. And don't forget Gita Chapter 7 Verse 12 where lord declares his authority/superiority over pradhana. – Yogi Sep 13 '16 at 12:12
  • hehe... actually I like all philosophy... so I support all philosophies to some level... – Tezz Sep 13 '16 at 12:38
  • @Yogi - Yoga and Sankhya schools were propagated by Hiranyagarbha and Kapila, respectively. The celebrated srivaishnava acharya, Swami Vedanta Desika (13 th century) says that though these schools are rejected by vedantins like Ramanujacharya and others and even Swami Desika refutes them, but he clearly says these schools were initially not against the teachings of Vedanta, but at a later point of time other followers of these schools brought in these changes which went against the vedantic thought. –  Sep 17 '16 at 16:50
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    @Krishna but ultimately it is wrong in present scenario to support these false schools since it is polluted and teaching against Vedas. Most imp of all bhagwad ramanujacharya and acharya vedant deshika reject it so how can we accept it. – Yogi Sep 17 '16 at 16:56
  • @Yogi - So, Swami Desikan, clearly says those which views of Yoga or Sankhya which aren't against Vedanta or srutis can be accepted as valid, but views of these schools which are against the Sruti or Vedanta should be rejected. Please refer to the work Paramatha bhanga of Swami Desika wherein he refutes the Yoga and the sankhya schools. –  Sep 17 '16 at 16:57
  • @Yogi - Why is sankhya school which is spoken so greatly about in Bhagavatham and Bhagavad gita is refuted by all the vedantins? This is because there is a view that Nirisvara Sankhya of Sage Kapila which is refuted by all vedantins is different from sEswara Saankhya darsanam of Sage Kapila, son of Devahuti which was propagated in Bhagavatham and Bhagavad Gita. –  Sep 17 '16 at 16:58
  • @Krishna since we are bhagwatas bhagwad gita is a shrutI and it (other schools) contradicts the view that ultimately bramhan is origin of everything including sattva rajas tamas. Read my answer the origin of sattva rajas tamas is shriman narayana. – Yogi Sep 17 '16 at 17:02
  • @yogi - Yes, absolutely agree that Yoga and Sankhya are refuted by Ramanujacharya and Swami Desikan, fully. What i am saying that views of others school of thoughts which arent against the Sruti and vedanta are acceptable as declared by Swami Desikan. swami Desikan says that even Nyaya school of thought was not against sruti and vedanta, initially when it was propounded by Gautama. Later on many followers of this school brought various views into Nyaya school which were against Sruti and vedanta. Hence, even Nyaya views not anatagonistic to Sruti is acceptable but other views are rejected. –  Sep 17 '16 at 17:10
  • @Yogi - I am not contesting your answer at all. I am just talking about the others schools of thoughts like Yoga, Sankhya and Nyaya. Yes, anything which contradicts sruti and vedanta, Bhagavad Gita has to be discarded or corrected accordingly. That is Why Swami Desikan wrote Nyaya Parishuddhi, where he corrected many views of Nyaya school in accordance with Sruti and Vedanta. –  Sep 17 '16 at 17:15
  • @Krishna Well its okay if you are not contesting. sorry if I was being rude. I thought you were supporting yoga samkhya views against vedantic views from shrutis. – Yogi Sep 17 '16 at 17:45