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In this excerpt from the Padma Purana, in a chapter which I think is likely an interpolation, Shiva comes to Rama's court disguised as a Brahmana and tells Rama how you can derive omens by picking verses from a Purana and interpreting their significance in light of whatever problem you're trying to solve. Rama asks what happens if you don't understand a meaning of a particular verse, and Shiva says this:

The meaning of the verse: Madhuni ca madhunyatra madhurmadhubhujam madhuh; madhuna madhunadyartham visani ca visani ca is unintelligible; it is not recommended in (finding out) an omen. So also the verse: Ruti rute rute rorauriri raram rari-raram; evam karoti suddhatma brahmano brahmanotithih. This verse is intelligible in part (the latter half is intelligible: a pure-souled brahmana, the guest of Brahman, acts like this). (Therefore) it is not recommended in (finding out) an omen. O best of the Raghus, such and other verses occur in the Puranas. They have no explanation.

Now Rama ultimately uses this method to find out that Vibhishana has been tied up in Sri Rangam for killing a Brahmana, and he rescues Vibhishana. But my question is, which Puranas do the so-called unintelligible "Madhuni ca" and "Ruti rute" verses mentioned by Shiva come from?

Shiva says that the two best Puranas for deriving omens are the Skanda Purana and the Vishnu Purana. But so far I haven't found either verse outside of the Padma Purana.

Also, is it really hopeless to try to understand these two verses? Madhu means honey, so is it possible that the verse is talking about honey? It might be connected to the Madhu Vidya found in the Upanishads, which I discuss here and here.

Sarvabhouma
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  • "Vibhishana has been tied up in Sri Rangam for killing a Brahmana," WHAT? – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 05:58
  • And I can't believe I am saying this but for once I think Shiva was out of his mind. Those verses are totally intelligible. (But I can't decipher them, though I have come across similar verses). And I thought only Vishnu blabber... – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 06:02
  • It is chapters like these that make want to tell Vishnu or Shiva or whoever to just keep quiet. What is all this omen business? – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 06:12
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    @Surya Well, given that the Puranas are divine, I find it plausible that you can derive omens from them. Concerning Vibhishana, here's the full chapter: http://gdurl.com/qcyq Basically Vibhishana accidentally killed an old and frail Brahmin in Sri Rangam by bumping into him with his foot. So the Dravidas (Tamils) tied him up and asked Rama to execute him. The situation was resolved when Vibhishana donated 360 cows as prayaschittam for the Brahmahatya. In any case, the chapter doesn't say why Vibhishana was in Sri Rangam, but presumably it was one of his regular visits to see Ranganatha. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 15 '16 at 12:50
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    But Ranganatha travelled to Srirangam after Ramavatara, so obviously Vibhishana wouldn't have purpose going there during Ramavatara... And Vibhishana killed a man by bumping into him? That would be like after accidentally kicking him, "Excuse Me, Sir,". "Oops, I killed him." I mean, seriously? – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 13:11
  • So that also means that my practice of randomly checking Srimad Bhagavatam when I am confused is a validated process? – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 13:13
  • @Surya No, Vibhishana took Ranganatha at the time of Rama's coronation, not after Rama avataram was over. And yeah, he accidentally kicked him and he died. What can I say? Vibhishana was a powerful Rakshasa and this was a really frail old man engaging in Tapasya. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 15 '16 at 13:14
  • @Surya Haha yeah, as long as you do the appropriate rituals before-hand. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 15 '16 at 13:15
  • I am pretty sure Rama gave Ranganatha to Vibhishana just before leaving for Vaikuntha. Where is it stated that he gave it after coronation? – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 13:18
  • @Surya Look at the Sthala Purana given here: http://www.srirangam.ramanujartemples.net/sthalapuranam.htm And here: https://www.trsiyengar.com/id161.shtml And here: http://temple.dinamalar.com/en/new_en.php?id=908 – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 15 '16 at 13:28
  • Strange, because I always thought he gifted it to Vibheeshana before leaving, due to the Uttara Kanda verse, "Aradhaya Jagannatham Ikshvaku Kuladaivatam," which Vishnu said after coming out Sarayu and blessing the Vanaras. – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 13:34
  • @Surya I think what Rama meant is "Keep worshiping Ranganatha, who is the Kuladevata of the Ikshvakus and whom I gave to you earlier." In any case, the one way to find out for sure is to look in the Koil Ozhugu, the official Sthala Puranam of the Ranganatha temple: https://archive.org/details/Tamil-Vishnu-Koyil-Ozhugu I can't read Tamil, so please tell me what it says. I assume the Vibhishana story would come right in the first chapter. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 15 '16 at 13:43
  • The original says nothing about WHEN he gave, it just says, "Thus, by Sri Rama's grace Vibheeshanaazhvan got Sriranga Vimanam." – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 13:48
  • @Surya OK, this English translation of the Koil Olugu says it was after defeating Ravana: https://archive.org/details/Koil-Olugu-English-1954 In any case, all the sources I've come across on the Internet say it was after the Pattabhishekham. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 15 '16 at 13:51
  • Okay then. If everything says so, I'll accept it. (The Koil Ozhugu doesn't say it, BTW.) Anyway, let me not digress too far from your question. – Surya Apr 15 '16 at 14:00
  • @Keshav Srinivasan Do people have books in Treta Yuga ? I have heard that writing is a degenerate sign of Kali Yuga.. – Tezz Apr 17 '16 at 10:56
  • @TejasweePokhrel Yes, you have heard correctly. And in fact if you read the full chapter, you'll see that Shiva discusses the shape of different letters of Devanagari script: http://gdurl.com/qcyq Devanagari script was developed relatively recently. That's one of the reasons I said in the beginning of my question "in a chapter that I think is likely an interpolation" :-) – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 17 '16 at 15:52
  • @Keshav Plus weren't the Ashtadasha Puranas the work of Krsna Dvaipayana Vyasa? So how could Mahadeva mention them to Rama? – Surya Apr 20 '16 at 08:10
  • @Surya Well, the user brahma jijnasa once tried to convince me that the Puranas are eternal, but yeah, the whole fact that they're discussing the Puranas in the first place is another reason I think this chapter is an interpolation. – Keshav Srinivasan Apr 20 '16 at 15:29
  • You know I can't figure out the whole meaning, but I have got a rough idea of the first verse: "Too much sweetness for the sake of sweetness is poison, (like) too much honey situated in a place makes the bee rest there (?)." So if a person with basic knowledge like me can derive this meaning, then obviously the verse is not unintelligible. – Surya Jan 11 '17 at 15:34
  • The second verse translates: "Prosperity is never found unless and until the student strives for the knowledge throughout; a pure-souled brahmana, the guest of Brahman, acts like this." – Surya Jan 11 '17 at 15:39

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