10

Reading The Lady of the Lake by Andrzej Sapkowski and at one point he describes the number of troops in the army as "four and forty thousand". Which number would that be? 44,000? 440,000? 40,004?

Michael Munta
  • 246
  • 2
  • 10

1 Answers1

18

It's an old-fashioned way to say "forty four thousand".

This way of counting comes from the Germanic languages. German, Dutch keep using it, but in modern English it's considered outdated.

Andrew Tobilko
  • 12,147
  • 6
  • 30
  • 67
  • 8
    My mother (born in London, 1920) used to say times which were 25 or 35 past each hour as e.g. 'five-and-twenty past ten' or 'five-and-twenty to eleven'. – Michael Harvey Jan 12 '23 at 09:58
  • 17
    Four and twenty blackbirds, baked in a pie. – Jack O'Flaherty Jan 12 '23 at 10:34
  • you could mention the use of the word "and" to mean addition "2 and 2 = 4" – WendyG Jan 12 '23 at 16:20
  • 4
    It's a stylistic choice that goes back to the Old Testament if not earlier, where specifically the number 40 or variants of it (e.g. 40,000) are used in a poetic sense to mean just "a whole lot". It doesn't necessarily mean there were exactly that many troops. Just that there were too many to bother getting an accurate count. See a list of such usages here – Darrel Hoffman Jan 12 '23 at 16:29
  • @DarrelHoffman - in British English we have 'umpteen' and I like the French trente et une – Michael Harvey Jan 12 '23 at 17:08
  • (two and a half) thousand, (a half and two) thousand, (four and forty) thousand. – user3067860 Jan 12 '23 at 18:35
  • 1
    The use of the number 40 to mean a large number may have been used in ancient times during the writing of the Hebrew Bible, but if English constructions like "four and forty" to mean 44 are Germanic in origin, then they don't appear in the Hebrew Bible in its ancient Hebrew or Greek forms. That would have been introduced when the Old Testament was translated into English, for example in the 1600s for the King James Version. – Christopher Beland Jan 12 '23 at 18:43
  • @MichaelHarvey "umpteen" shows up in US English as well. Hadn't heard the French 31 thing before in my 5 years of high school French, but I think if anything, my French is more of a Canadian dialect given my teacher. I'm sure I sounded very provincial on the rare occasions I've had to speak to actual French people. 40 as a large indefinite number apparently predates even Hebrew, going back to ancient Sumerian... – Darrel Hoffman Jan 12 '23 at 18:47
  • @DarrelHoffman - it's a bit idiomatic. An exasperated mother might say je t'ai dit trente-et-une fois to a child who has omitted to do something. I have heard trente-six as well. – Michael Harvey Jan 12 '23 at 18:53
  • @AndrewTobilko I just noticed I used 2 fours and I am still not clear on which goes first. If it were "six and forty thousand" is it 46,000 or 64,000? – Michael Munta Jan 12 '23 at 20:57
  • @AndrewTobilko - 6,000 + (and) 40,000 – AcK Jan 12 '23 at 21:09
  • 1
    How would 40,004 be expressed then? "Forty thousand and four"? – Matthias Jan 12 '23 at 21:12
  • 2
    @Matthias this is probably why that silly numbering system was discarded... – RonJohn Jan 12 '23 at 22:12
  • (four and (forty thousand)) vs. ((four and forty) thousand). Ugh. – shoover Jan 12 '23 at 23:14
  • 1
    @WendyG: Focusing on mathematical addition here opens the discussion on whether it could be 4 and 40,000. This answers avoids the ambiguity by specifically focusing on the convention of "[units] and [tens]" as a language construct. – Flater Jan 13 '23 at 00:42
  • @MichaelMunta There is a poem "When I Was One-and-Twenty" about a young man. I hope it helps you clear up the confusion. Also think about English numbers from thirteen (three and ten) to nineteen (nine and ten) - I think a similar pattern can be found there. – Andrew Tobilko Jan 13 '23 at 08:25
  • 3
    @Flater Alternative explanation: it's a superposition of 4 and 40,000 :) nobody opened the box yet to see whether 39,996 were there – user253751 Jan 13 '23 at 08:29
  • 1
    @JackO'Flaherty Four and twenty blaze it – dbmag9 Jan 13 '23 at 14:01
  • 1
    @dbmag9 That's "baked" too. – Jack O'Flaherty Jan 14 '23 at 01:51