Is it ok to go on a swim with your colleagues while on a conference?

Question

I'm attending a humanities conference in Italy in early September. Since the weather is supposed to be good and the venue is close to a beach, some coworkers are already planing to go for a swim together. We generally have a very friendly working atmosphere, a good rapport with each other and hang out together in private, like having a beer from time to time.

I have basically no problems with going to the beach with my colleagues but would indeed find it kind of inappropriate if, for instance, my supervisor would join (I'm female, 28 years old, in case this is relevant). I'm quite insecure how to behave and would like to know:

1. Is it generally inappropriate to go for a swim with coworkers (as well as other PhD students)?
2. What to do if a person (like i.e. your supervisor) you wouldn't want to come, joins the group after you already agreed to go the beach?

[EDIT] Since questions came up why I could feel uncomfortable about the situation: I think it is always hard to find a good balance between having a friendly and a professional relationship (with my supervisor, but also with other people who are above me in hierarchy). I also regard the relationship between a PhD student and his/her supervisor as a special one, because it is based on asymmetric dependencies but they also work closely together. While I think having a beer or going out together is completely fine and helpful for a working relationship I consider the beach situation as a tightrope walk since people are (obviously) not fully dressed. It might sound a bit prude but I don't regard is as an uncommon thought. Thanks for your answers so far!

[EDIT] Even though I think some answers are really good and helpful I can’t name one that fully answered the problem and I think the discussion shows that this seems to be nearly impossible. Since many comments did not include answers to my question but concerns about my attitude I want to address some points I have noticed and consider as crucial aspects in this discussion:

Firstly, I was surprised that the initial reactions can be classified into two different categories: Either it was said something like “don’t mind, it’s completely natural” or “there must be some vibes between your supervisor and you”. I think the existence of both parties shows that the situation is a little bit more nuanced than that: The fact that some commenters instantly assumed sexual attraction illustrates that the situation might not be as normal and natural as others state.

I think it's fair to say that sexual objectification of women is also present in academia (like anywhere else), and for me it's hard to comprehend that some claim partial nudity in a professional relationship would not play any role at all (obviously, it affects everyone in a different manner and even though I believe that there might be some men/woman who truly don’t care at all about anyone showing whatever, I’d assume it’s a minority). This might be linked to the idea that – as one of you complained – women “think so low of men” and I indeed understand that this might cause discomfort for some men. Unfortunately, this fear doesn’t come out of thin air and is surely based on the fact that most women made unpleasant experiences in this regard.

However, I think it is interesting that this issue came up even though I didn’t directly address it. The motivation why I asked was a feeling of unease because we could be confronted with a situation of which both of us (or anyone else in the group) could feel weird about simply because we show parts of our body (I’m talking about common swimwear) that usually belong to a private and not to a professional sphere. I consider this part of privacy as even more precarious than, for instance, being tipsy with each other, which might happen after having some beers at an evening event.

I assume most commenters to be male and some might feel offended which requires some steps of interpretations of the situation I didn’t mentioned in my question (which does not mean that I didn’t have some of it in mind, see above). I also think this indicates the complexity of the situation and that it is probably not as easy and harmless as some might want it to be.

Answer 1

It happens all the time, and I see no problem whatsoever. I can understand that you might feel uneasy with your supervisor joining, but nevertheless, I do not think it is inappropriate in any way (we are talking about a normal beach where also families would go, right?).

Besides, a beach is a public place, so even if you somehow wanted to prevent your supervisor from going, you cannot really forbid them to go to the same public place.

Therefore, to address the second part of the question, I think the only option for you would be to refrain from going with the group.

Answer 2

I'm quite insecure how to behave

I'll skip right past the issue about whether it is appropriate to go to the beach with your colleagues or your supervisor. Obviously some people deem it to be appropriate, and we probably will find other people who would suggest it to be inappropriate.

Your issue is that you are feeling uncomfortable about (aspects of) it, for whatever reasons, which are completely irrelevant. It is for nobody else to judge whether your feelings are appropriate or not, they are what they are.

The proper approach then, is clear:

1. Don't go swimming to the beach.
2. Do not, under any circumstance, feel bad about it. Not everybody has to do everything. Not everybody has to like everything. You do not need to be a herd animal.
3. Do not fall into the trap of explaining to anybody why you don't go. Just don't go. Don't talk it through with your colleagues.

This advice has one specific reasoning: by deciding on one particular action, and sticking with it, you remove your own insecurity. You now can act with confidence.

It does not matter whatsoever that there may be naked skin involved here. I would give the exact same advice if it were about doing a mountain hike (with you being afraid of heights) or a trip to the bowling alley (with you just having no fun whatsoever at bowling), or a Dungeons&Dragons roleplaying session, or whatever else.

It is also a good exercise; it helps to get into the habit of deciding your own likes and dislikes and sticking to them.

Oh, and if you need some objective reasoning of why it may be appropriate to stay away: there always is the concept of separating work and private life. You never need to be ashamed if you want to keep this separation up. Different people have different scales of where that separation has to be. You pick yours, and stick to them. You can still laugh with your colleagues and wish them fun at the beach.

Answer 3

In my mind the answer to your first question is pretty simple. Yes, of course it is okay to go on a swim with your colleagues. Our colleagues are often our friends and we are allowed to socialize with them. While some universities have rules about dating/sex between faculty/students, there isn't any western university that would prohibit going to the beach.

The answer to your second question is what to do if someone you do not want to show up, shows up. If you think about it in general terms, this can happen at the beach, the bar, or even lunch. A swim at the beach is is in some ways easier to deal with, compared to a bar or lunch, in that it is clearly a social activity and one in which it is likely someone might behave in a non-professional manner (in this case clothing choices).

I suggest you talk to the colleagues you want to go to the beach with and suggest it be post doc only, or whatever rules apply (e.g., student only, non faculty, or assistant professor only) that keeps out the people you want. This has the advantage of not singling anyone out and realistically, there may be a whole "class" of people you would not want to swim with. As long as your rules are not overly discriminatory (e.g., let's keep the blacks out), I doubt you will have much resistance. In fact, my guess is you are not the only one to be concerned. If you do get resistance, then you should assume that it will be a group that you will be uncomfortable with. If you do set rules and someone breaks them, you should call them out even if you are not uncomfortable since someone else in the group might be.

Answer 4

1. The usual trick is not to plan such things as a group activity (which might create some peer pressure to attend), but as an informal and optional gathering. Maybe there is a starting time for those who want to meet, but there should be no schedule, and certainly no discussion of any official business (to keep attendance optional). Under this conditions I'd guess it would be perfectly appropriate to attend, if you would like to do so.

2. After all, the beach is a public place. However, it it's an appointed meeting (as opposed to a random encounter), e.g. a garden party, supervisors are expected by tradition to leave early *. This is to ensure the others can relax and have fun. In a pinch, if a person you wouldn't want to come appears or forgets to leave early, you are always allowed to walk away. Please just do it in a polite and unobtrusive way ("...wow, look at the time!").

*It is a common courtesy for supervisors to leave early in cultures with high power distance. There, where a subordinate must strictly obey their supervisor, they can never relax in their presence. It is common for supervisors to leave early in countries like China or India and other countries that are reddish on power distance scale. You would never have to worry about it in Northern Europe or Anglo American cultures. Even though there are social groups in the West with high power distance where this tradition exists, like military.

Answer 5

What an interesting question, and when I first read it I had a totally different angle to it. Actually, when I am at a conference I try to get the most out of it scientifically because it is so expensive to send me there. Thus, in most cases, there would not be much time for a swim in the sense of a social event or some other private activity. I personally would not have wanted my supervisor to think that I use a conference for doing something other than, well, going to the conference. Of course, there might be time in the morning for a jog/swimming round, but then it would be "sports" and not a social event. I can just say that I - as a supervisor - appreciate it if my students do the same and also use free time around the conference to make contact to other scientists, search for a post-doc position, read an interesting article to be well prepared for a discussion with the authors on the next day, or just rest to be alert during the talks. A student who decides to have an afternoon on the beach while the conference is ongoing or goes to a party until late in the night, would have to talk to me afterwards. If they want, they are free and I will be happy to support them if they just add another private holiday day to the conference journey to enjoy the surroundings.

So, my suggestion is to separate private holiday activities and business on conferences and to squeeze out everything of the conference itself. I wish you a great time in Italy in any case!

Answer 6

I want to try and be practical rather than judgemental.

Is it generally inappropriate to go for a swim with coworkers (as well as other PhD students)?

Generally it isn't inappropriate, although it depends on which country you're in (more traditionalist or more liberal). In (almost?) all of Europe and in the US I'd say it's inappropriate.

But it's the specific circumstances rather than the general question that is the more delicate issue here.

What to do if a person (like i.e. your supervisor) you wouldn't want to come, joins the group after you already agreed to go the beach?

If I were in your position, I would say this depends to the women-to-men ratio in your group (for simplicity I'll ignore issues like group members' age range and transsexual/gender-queer members).

If you're the only woman - frankly, in your position, I would probably either not go at all (perhaps make arrangements with other people at the conference - a great excuse), or maybe I would join, but just dress in a shirt + beach shorts. That is, unless I wanted to attract some sexual attention.

Now, it's perfectly legitimate in my opinion for a woman to want to attract the attention of men in an out-of-the-office setting, and still expect to be treated professionally in the office; and as a male I would feel better if a female member of my group feels safe enough to do that; but - there is a minor risk of "spill-over" of sexualized perception back into the workplace. And you did mention you're worried about how this would affect your relations with your advisor. So it depends.

If there is a small minority of women - I suggest you coordinate with them. Share your concern with one or two of them, and maybe they can share previous experience and assuage your fear, or verify it. Alternatively, you could come with a bathing suit underneath shorts and a shirt, then evaluate the dynamic on the beach, and if you feel comfortable/safe enough, dress down to your bathing suit. Remember nobody has to know you have that as an option, and you could still make some excuse regarding why you don't even have one.

If there is a large fraction of women, things are easier: If some of them don't go, you can skip it too and not feel awkward about it. And if most of them go, then you'll only be one of a larger contigent of women.And You can basically avoid your supervisor and stick with other women, so you're never in a more intimate one-on-one situation with him. There should be enough people (and enough women particularly) for this to be possible.

Plus, you could still do the "bathing suit under shorts+shirt" combination and delay the final decision until you're actually there.

Answer 7

While I generally think it can be OK to go swimming/beach with co-workers and I have myself experiences with that in the past with no issues I do see potential for being awkward and I am sure it is not trouble free in all constelations:

It is a personal thing, it might depend on the organization culture and also depends on the actual persons involved (and co-workers not involved!).

There is no clear yes/no as those factors are not known.

You stated it would be fine culture wise, however the fact that you have asked here and think hard about it might be a warning sign. There can be a thing you cant directly point to but you have doubts (the reasons are only important to you). This should guide your decision.

Just two more thoughts:

• In an academic setting it is less of an issue if you dont expect to work together for a long time (i.e. only till graduation or whatever).
• The comments here do show that it is not a cool topic as implied (why else would the answers directly go in direction of romance, "want to sexually attract", topless, bikinis and so on). So it can be expected there might as well be equally insensitive co-workers (maybe jealous "at home") - which can use it for gossipping and similar.

Answer 8

for me it's hard to comprehend that some claim partial nudity in a professional relationship would not play any role at all

Simple solution to eliminate the concerns about the role that partial nudity would play in a professional relationship: eliminate the partial nudity.

Since you're so concerned about being uncomfortable due to being conscientious about how much skin is shown, why not just show less skin?

Example #1: Dolfin Aquashape Aquatard Unitard Swimsuit

(Check it that picture, and then decide whether that completely takes care of the "partial nudity" concern for you. It would in my culture.)

That was the number one hit on Google images when I searched for "full swimsuit". There are other swimsuits available too. Many of the more "complete" pieces are what I would call a "wetsuit". So, that's another item you could search for.

(Sure, if you look at Google Image Search for wetsuit then some of the images are rather form-fitting/revealing, but scroll down to see more pictures and you'll see lots of suits that aren't.)

I consider this part of privacy as even more precarious than, for instance, being tipsy with each other

And I don't. (I don't view such privacy as being more deserving of concern than tipsiness.)

I don't say that to judge your values, but simply to point out that mine differ. Different people have different attitudes. Some people would say that you should stick up to your values and not bow down to societal pressure about what a woman should be required to wear. However, I say, let those impassioned people win that fight themselves if they like. (Again, I say: Different people have different attitudes.)

Your usage of the word "precarious" demonstrates a bit about your thoughts on this topic. That, and the fact that you created this question, clearly shows that this is an issue that you find (at least a bit) concerning. If you're worried about doing something wrong, or quite concerned of the potential social consequences that could come due to mishandling, then do what will make you comfortable. If a purchase of an article of clothing will put your mind at ease, I think that is money wisely spent. I'm not saying that every woman should wear an outfit just like this. I am saying that this style of swimwear may be a very good option because it may work out quite nicely for you, specifically. (This is based on the very little bit that I've observed from you so far).

Is it generally inappropriate to go for a swim with coworkers (as well as other PhD students)?

No. (Appropriate. Not inappropriate.)

Where I live, it might be a bit of an odd activity to suggest. Swimming isn't frequently super popular here. (There's usually 3 days a year, or less, where the temperature would make that activity generally tolerable.) So if someone asked me about swimming, I'd find that activity a bit of an unusual choice to be inviting people to.

But if I went to a place where there is a nice beach, then such an invitation would be entirely sensible. It's called taking advantage of the opportunity to utilizing the environment where you are. If you're visiting a warm place near water, then enjoy the experience.

What to do if a person (like i.e. your supervisor) you wouldn't want to come, joins the group after you already agreed to go the beach?

Separate, endure, or flee (a.k.a. change your plans). Really, there's nothing beach-specific about that question.

I think it is always hard to find a good balance between having a friendly and a professional relationship (with my supervisor, but also with other people who are above me in hierarchy).

This is unfortunate. Consider the few people who are at the top of the hierarchy. If everyone exhibited such attitudes, those people would be doomed to being lonely. When I've been a supervisor at work (or in a classroom), I've endeavored to have rank gets tossed out the window after hours (or off-site).

Answer 9

While doing my PhD in Australia, more than once went for a group (mostly) naked swim with a group of colleagues, some postdocs, sysadmins, some PhD students, some local, some visiting, female, male. We looked at it as a normal activity after a night out (sic!).

Ah, these good old days, almost 25 years ago...

Answer 10

1. Is it generally inappropriate to go for a swim with coworkers (as well as other PhD students)?

This really depends on the culture both of your hosts and that of your lab. In a country like Japan it's not usual for colleagues to go to an onsen (温泉) together, although groups tend to be gender segregated unless modest dress is provided. My understanding is the same tends to be the case for sanua in Scandinavian countries as well. So in those cases you would need to decide if you want to adapt to the host culture for the duration, or continue to operate based upon your home culture. If your home culture tends to dictate a separation between supervisors and subordinates in "relaxed" environments then you are within your rights to want to maintain that as well.

2. What to do if a person (like i.e. your supervisor) you wouldn't want to come, joins the group after you already agreed to go the beach?

Let's look at this another way. How would you feel if you ran into your supervisor while swimming laps at the pool on campus? Assuming your supervisor is not acting inappropriately, it wouldn't be appropriate to ask them to leave since the pool is a public space and a lot of people enjoy swimming for exercise. The same reasoning tends to apply to public spaces like beaches as well. Explicitly asking your supervisor not to use a public space could cause some friction since you are asking them to restrict their actives. Furthermore, given the size of the beach it might also be a non-issue since there may be enough space for everyone to go without encountering each other.

As such, this question might be one of those that is best resolved if and when the situation actually occurs. There are a lot of ways that this could play out (e.g., your supervisor doesn't intend to go to the beach, they are going a different day, etc.) where you would never encounter your supervisor in the first place. Even if they do show up, they may not bother the group and be on a different part of the beach. In short, I wouldn't put too much effort into worrying about this scenario unless your supervisor states beforehand they want to join the group.

Answer 11

Just another point, to exemplify how this can vary from field/country.

I'm Brazilian, and here, going to the beach with everyone from the lab would be pretty commonplace. Even a barbecue with a pool, for instance. But then again, swimwear is almost formal wear (but weirdly enough, topless/nudity is considered offensive/sexual - big no no).

However, in the lab (computer science), we would generally avoid any revealing clothing or physical contact. Rather commonplace for STEM, similar to my experience in France and the US, although the definition of "revealing" is slightly different.

But then I did a stint as a postdoc in a physical education college. The "common" work clothes were actually gym clothes (short shorts, tank tops, team jerseys - if they won the last match), with the exception of a few of the professors. Pants? only if it was really cold, so a week per year tops...

My work there involved motion capture, which was done with markers, precisely placed in anatomically predetermined positions (so you can infer the skeleton from it). Which would mean getting "groped" by the trained lab-mates to position the markers, since we couldn't use athletes to test/debug the system...

Then, I started working with swimming sports. Which would mean a bunch of people from the lab actually working in swimwear, because we had to place the equipment in the pool, then getting the markers in place, and swimming while filming. At every take, the markers would have to be checked/replaced, because the water would move them.

In the analysis part, we would stare in those movies frame by frame, several times, until the reconstruction was just right.

In this context, getting "groped" by lab-mates (undergrads to professors, male and female), while barely clothed and being recorded by several cameras, was totally normal and done on an almost daily basis, without anything inappropriate going on.

tldr: I understand your concern, but it would depend more on the people involved than on the clothing itself.

On the practical side, what I would do: be flexible. The advice of going with "removable" clothing is fantastic, because it gives you freedom/flexibility to adapt to the current situation. I do that when I'm unsure of what to wear, from going to work in a suit and tie to having my trunks under my shorts on the beach/pool.

One more personal opinion: go with an open mind. I'm not saying "let anything happen", far from it, but rather give people the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise. Or you might risk turning a fun situation awkward.

The "buddy system" is helpful in this context as well, when you have someone you trust and you watch each other's backs... "If I tug my left ear, it means get me out of here now" kind-of trust :)

Answer 12

I am very surprised to read that this question even has a gender tag, and I am very sad to understand that sometimes women think so low of men.

There are different angles to see this, but I will cut it very short and write that there should be no problem if you enjoy an evening at the beach (especially being dressed up formally the whole time, therefore probably sweating like a fountain - in September it's still hot in Italy). It's supposed to be fun, nothing else.

I do get the point of peole talking about going topless or not, but I don't think that anyone wrote the following very clearly: not every men will stare/giggle/comment at you when you are "less dressed". Please notice that you are not the only one having to follow an ethical code, and that most people tend to behave correctly, even in front of a topless person.
This is even more true for people who work in a friendly environment and spend time together sometimes (source: I used to work in Italy and from time to time, in summer, we'd finish our work, get into the car, drive to the beach and have a swim + beer + guitar song there - no one ever had any problems and/or found that awkward).
Besides, some men can be shy as well to show their bodies. I had more than a couple of times to choose between "heck, the co-worker from accounting will see my hairy chest and my fatty abdomen" and running for the water because "the last who gets in the water buys everyone a beer" (I didn't buy any beer that evening).

If you don't want to go it's another matter completely, and you can say it plain and simple (you may want to review the conference material, or have a stroll in the city, or whatever), and I don't think that anyone will even raise an eyebrow.

About your supervisor being there, remember that he (apparently he is a "he") is a person like any other, and you may be surprised how much people can have fun / be themselves without trespassing ethical boundaries when they have some "free-time" and be professional during their work. If anyone should be careful about not dropping the authority-facade at all, it should be him.

EDIT:

Firstly, I was surprised that the initial reactions can be classified into two different categories: Either it was said something like “don’t mind, it’s completely natural” or “there must be some vibes between your supervisor and you”.

Maybe because it is normal to simply go to the beach and have fun. What it's not normal is that you assume it isn't. People ask if there is vibes, because in that very case it would be unethical to spend time together.

The fact that some commenters instantly assumed sexual attraction illustrates that the situation might not be as normal and natural as others state.

This fact illustrates that, since people normally spend time together "almost-naked", if you ask, something must be different than the "normality".

It's no secret that sexual objectification of women is also present in academia (like anywhere else), and for me it sounds a bit naïve to neglect that partial nudity in a professional relationship would not play any role at all (obviously, it affects everyone in a different manner > and even though I believe that there might be some men/woman who truly > don’t care at all about anyone showing whatever, I’d assume it’s a minority).

Pardon me, but I find this polarized in so many levels. You want to be a free woman, go out there and be a free woman. Nobody is stopping you. You get a glance you don't like? Speak up. If you don't go to the beach to have fun with people you enjoy, you are already losing as a woman and gaining nothing as a professional. Let me stress it again: if you don't want to, that's another story.

This might be linked to the idea that – as one of you complained – women “think so low of men” and I indeed understand that this might cause discomfort for some men. Unfortunately, this fear doesn’t come out of thin air and is surely based on the fact that most women made unpleasant experiences in this regard.

This should not be a question on gender, so for the sake of ethics let me refrain from answering. I decided not to answer to any general gender related comment, I'd rather stick to ethics.

However, I think it is interesting that this issue came up even though I didn’t directly address it. The motivation why I asked was a feeling of unease because we could be confronted with a situation of which both of us (or anyone else in the group) could feel weird about simply because we show parts of our body (I’m talking about common swimwear) that usually belong to a private and not to a professional sphere. I consider this part of privacy as even more precarious than, for instance, being tipsy with each other, which might happen after having some beers at an evening event.

This is the part that actually makes sense. Being tipsy with each other, in order to avoid problems, you should not get intoxicated. It's as easy as making eye contact with a woman in bikini :)

Answer 13

Are you in any way attracted to your supervisor? Or do you feel that he may be attracted to you? The fact you explicitly say the problem is the fact that you are less dressed, and not the fact you are socialising, would seem to imply that. Otherwise, this is just a standard way to socialise, like drinking a glass of wine together.

But if there is from either side (or both) some interest, then that is the real issue you need to address.

Answer 14

I have to go with the 3rd answerer here, seems to me that your problem is specific to your emotional relationship with your super. I see it's been downvoted, which seems an odd, possibly even an emotional, response...
You write that at the beach you're not going to be fully clothed. I guess that means that you'll only have half of your two piece on? Oh, wait - you probably meant that you're not going to have your burqa on...or maybe your winter coat, hood, leggings, boots, mittens, and goggles. Ok. I've beaten that dead horse. My point, and it should have eventually become obvious, I hope!, is that what's "fully clothed" is context sensitive. If you go into the water -and that's not a sure thing, especially on Italian beaches - then I'd say the standard is different than what you might wear literally on the beach (where short sleeved shirt and shorts and sandals would be appropriate - just as appropriate as a swim suit. Of course there are swim suits and swim suits, and I don't want to get into body shaming, but the fact still remains (and in fact, I suspect your post proves it) that people react on an emotional level to others' appearances, and as a very politically incorrect piece of advice, you don't want either to induce disgust nor lust in people you need to work with (and yet maintain a purely professional relationship). My two cents: "fully clothed" for swimming is a non-cleavage displaying (although really this is more fashion than culture,imho) non-buttocks baring one or two piece. If you're uncomfortable with being on the beach so dressed, wear your suit under shorts and a short sleeved shirt (or a wrap-around). OTOH, I never counsel anyone to avoid their gut, (meaning their intuition). If your gut is telling you there may be a problem, there may be a problem. There's no way for us to parse that for you. That is, there's no way for anyone but you to figure out if the problem is you or (I assume) him...or both.