45

I am new to research and I have yet to internalize the concept of journals and their utility in archiving scientific literature.

Almost all the papers I have read recently are from this website called arxiv. Arxiv calls itself to be a preprint archive. Anyone can upload a PDF file to the repository and it counts as a valid research. Large companies like Google and Facebook post all their research here. The research is peer reviewed, It does not have the tyranny of a fixed format and the publishing is instantaneous unlike journals which are painfully slow. It is also open access and unlike open access journals it does not cost a fortune to publish a paper.

My question is, why were journals used to begin with? Why are they used now?

I have heard some people say that if a paper is not published in a scopus indexed journal then it does not have any value. Then why are so many people publishing here? As far as I know citations from arxiv are picked up by google scholar.

EDIT: Ok, so the entire system is a huge mess.

mako
  • 12,831
  • 1
  • 46
  • 76
Souradeep Nanda
  • 593
  • 4
  • 10
  • 57
    ArXiv is not peer reviewed. – Tobias Kildetoft Mar 18 '17 at 14:57
  • 19
    "the tyranny of a fixed format" sounds a bit bombastic -- it isn't such a big deal in practice. – Federico Poloni Mar 18 '17 at 15:00
  • 1
    You may find the following related question useful: Why do we not reinvent the journal system? – Mad Jack Mar 18 '17 at 15:23
  • 31
    "it counts as a valid research" - that's in the eye of the beholder. There isn't some universal "valid/invalid" flag attached to any given piece of research. For instance, most university faculty will find that arXiv posts will not satisfy their employer's expectations for their research. – Nate Eldredge Mar 18 '17 at 15:28
  • 14
    "The entire system is a mess" is an overstatement. Don't despair. The system certainly has flaws, and some people feel more strongly about them than others, and are more vocal. But for a lot of other people, the system works reasonably well and its flaws do not interfere with research in a serious way. – Nate Eldredge Mar 18 '17 at 18:57
  • 4
    OP, I honestly believe you chose the wrong answer to accept. While inertia is always a factor inhibiting social change, ArXiv is not an alternative to publishing in journals, for reasons mentioned by @TobiasKildetoft and most of the other answers. – einpoklum Mar 19 '17 at 11:00
  • 4
    @NateEldredge Many researchers (me included) would disagrees with your statement. The system is a mess. This is not an overstatement. Not everybody agrees, of course, but some would argue that this is akin to Stockholm syndrome: people got so used to the mess that they reflexively defend it. – Konrad Rudolph Mar 20 '17 at 15:52
  • 1
    @KonradRudolph Accusing people who defend a system of having Stockholm Syndrome really isn't constructive. – David Richerby Mar 21 '17 at 17:24
  • 5
    @DavidRicherby I’m not accusing, I’m trying to explain something (to myself and others). I’m not mad at Nate, I just think he’s wrong, and in such a way as to be hard to grasp for me: To many scientists, stating that the current publishing system isn’t a mess just flies in the face of overwhelming evidence. Incidentally, I don’t think it’s wrong to defend the current system, either. But defending doesn’t mean not acknowledging that it’s broken in very fundamental ways. – Konrad Rudolph Mar 21 '17 at 17:27

7 Answers7

42

Why are so many people publishing [on ArXiv]?

You have to be careful with terminology when making statements like that. ArXiv is certainly "publishing" in the literal sense of "making public" but would you say that you'd "published a book" if you'd just put it on your website? Probably not.

My question is, why were journals used to begin with?

Because they predate ArXiv and the web by hundreds of years, though the format has changed over time.

Why are they used now?

Partly through inertia, partly through a lack of alternatives. On a purely scientific level, ArXiv itself is not peer-reviewed. On a non-scientific level, ... People have an intuition about the quality they expect from a paper that appears in a particular journal and we don't have alternatives that allow us to make this kind of judgement. Correspondingly, certain journals have quite a lot of prestige, which is important for students early-career researchers who are looking for promotion; a large fraction of papers have at least one such author. It's easier for people like Tim Gowers to work outside that system.

David Richerby
  • 33,823
  • 6
  • 74
  • 143
  • 6
    Additional context for the last sentence: Tim Gowers (the author of one of the linked posts) is an extremely famous mathematician. An abbreviated listed of his accomplishments include: the Fields Medal (the biggest award in mathematics), membership in the Royal Society of London, a professorship at arguably the best place to study mathematics in his country and a consensus top 10 pick world-wide, and a Knighthood for his accomplishments in mathematics. – Stella Biderman Sep 14 '18 at 05:05
  • 7
    I think his blog is excellent and take his ideas about mathematics culture quite seriously, but at the end of the day when you’re the kind of person who can walk into almost any university in the world and tell them that they now employ you, it’s a lot easier to disdain the prestige system than it is for most people. – Stella Biderman Sep 14 '18 at 05:07
29

First of all, ArXiv covers mathematical disciplines (specifically: Physics, Mathematics, Computer Science, Quantitative Biology, Quantitative Finance and Statistics), not all academic fields. So, the question, which seems to pose this as a general inquiry about the need for journals, is overly broad in the context of offer ArXiv as an alternative.

Second of all, ArXiv is not peer reviewed. Therefore, consumers of the information need to be a bit more careful than when they're referencing information that has gotten past an editorial board and at least a couple peer reviewers. That's not to say that erroneous material doesn't get past peer reviewers (it does) but there's just more quality control in a peer reviewed paper than an unreviewed paper.

Third, my impression of ArXiv is that people upload their stuff there to make it available sooner while they pursue publication in a peer-reviewed journal. It is not meant as a publishing destination, but rather a repository to speed up dissemination of the information for those who may want it sooner.

Fourth, in my department (I'm in a science discipline, not math), getting tenure requires publishing in peer reviewed journals that are indexed by something like Pubmed. Book chapters and unpublished reports (which is what I'd consider an ArXiv paper) count very little toward fulfilling tenure expectations.

David Richerby
  • 33,823
  • 6
  • 74
  • 143
arx
  • 291
  • 2
  • 2
  • 9
    I feel compelled to say that things on the internet are literally "published". I'd hate to see that word corrupted to mean only "peer-reviewed" or "passed the gate-keepers", etc. And for many people with tenure, now that we have the internet, what's the point of continued status-seeking? It costs time and effort, as opposed to actually doing the work. – paul garrett Mar 18 '17 at 17:34
  • 1
    Is peer review even necessary for computer science? If the code runs then yay otherwise boo. Also as @paulgarrett said its kinda superficial. Cyclic if you think about it. All good papers are published in good journals, good journals publish good papers. – Souradeep Nanda Mar 18 '17 at 18:51
  • 55
    @SouradeepNanda I am afraid that what's superficial is your view of computer science. It's about far more than "does the code run". – Nate Eldredge Mar 18 '17 at 18:58
  • 15
    Yes - computer science (my area of it, at least) is about proofs, not code. Even if you're looking at code, the fact that it runs does not in any way imply that it will always give a correct result. – William Mar 18 '17 at 19:28
  • 15
    @SouradeepNanda if anything, whether or not the code runs is the least important bit of information. A valid algorithm with a syntax error in its implementation is still useful, while a perfect implementation of a crappy algorithm is pointless. Nevertheless, the later runs while the former doesn't. In any case, the vast majority of scientific output is not algorithms and isn't something that can "run". – terdon Mar 18 '17 at 23:16
  • 1
    Physics and quantitative biology, at least, are scientific, not mathematical fields. The difference is whether things can be proven in the mathematical sense or they have to be observed empirically and reasoned about using mathematics. You cannot ever prove anything about the natural world. – l0b0 Mar 19 '17 at 07:40
  • 1
    @terdon For very large chunks of computer science, there is no code to run. – David Richerby Mar 20 '17 at 10:16
  • @DavidRicherby yep, that's precisely my point. The code is usually secondary or not even there. – terdon Mar 20 '17 at 10:47
  • 4
    @terdon I'm making a stronger statement. Much of computer science is not about code at all, to the extent that saying that "the code is not even there" is a bit like saying "the bananas are not even there." It's not that these researchers have code but don't put it in their papers: there never was any code because the work has nothing to do with code. – David Richerby Mar 20 '17 at 10:53
  • Accuracy is only one aspect of a paper. There is also making sure the document is readable, that it appropriately references earlier works, and so on. – Fred Douglis Mar 21 '17 at 17:22
  • @paulgarret: status seeking is unfortunately necessary, as status determines how the (limited) available funds are distributed. – Gerhard Mar 23 '17 at 00:47
  • @Gerhard, some status is necessary, sure, as in many endeavors, but I'd hope that there is a viable notion of "sufficient amount" of status/money/whatever, as opposed to "getting as much as possible". – paul garrett Mar 23 '17 at 13:01
  • +1 for noting arXiv isn't universal. Almost none of the papers I read are on arXiv. – Fomite Jun 09 '17 at 23:57
19

Peer review, as the others have said.

Mathematicians can consult dozens (if not hundreds) of false proofs of the Riemann Hypothesis on Arxiv. Such things are (mostly) rejected by the journals. Journals which publish them soon get a bad reputation.

Imagine if all the amazing new health claims form the Internet could not be distinguished from serious medical research! (For many people I know, that is unfortunately already the case. But those who care can try to find which of those cancer cures have at least some actual evidence for them.)

GEdgar
  • 18,325
  • 8
  • 47
  • 66
  • 2
    Are you sure you're not thinking of Vixra? Completely hokey spammy Riemann hypothesis proofs and that sort of thing tend to be deleted from Arxiv as I understand it. –  Mar 20 '17 at 06:13
  • 2
    There is not a lot of junk math on Arxiv. – jwg Mar 20 '17 at 11:02
  • 4
    @MilesRout... Yes Archiv. For fun I just browsed there. The most recent proofs of the Riemann hypothesis are dated March 15 and March 13. Some wiseacre once said that the Archiv category math.GM stands for "garbage math". – GEdgar Mar 20 '17 at 14:40
14

Journals, in the past and today, are not just printed material - they're social institutions of the community; and publishing in a journal is a process that involves:

  • Peer review by such specialists in the field as the editor/editorial collective/steering committee deems appropriate; and
  • Editing of the paper: Content-wise and typesetting/graphics-wise and language/style-wise. It could be editing due to reviewer comments by the original authors or by professionals employed to assist with the journal.

You don't get that on ArXiv, and you only get that partially (or almost not at all) in conferences.

The use of journals as publication venues is also a form of filtration / selection, even from among papers which would merit reading given endless time and attention. In the past, publication in a journal was often the difference between a publication coming to people's attention at all (ignoring personal contacts); but these days, it's still the case in most disciplines that there's much more awareness of what's been published in journals than of what one could find using an web search engine.


In some fields, conferences serve this role as much/more so than journals, but you can just apply this answer to submitting papers to those conferences - whose proceedings are like a sort of a journal too.

einpoklum
  • 39,047
  • 6
  • 75
  • 192
  • 1
    Regarding getting peer review and editing feedback from journals more than conferences, that must depend on the field. I've been involved in many CS conferences whose reviewing processes are more rigorous than most journals, including some reviews that will note every last grammatical mistake and typo for the benefit of the authors. – Fred Douglis Mar 21 '17 at 17:25
  • @FredDouglis: Well, that's true, but you can count the proceedings of those conferences as journals in the context of OP's question. – einpoklum Mar 21 '17 at 17:38
  • 1
  • Perhaps. If the real question is "why peer review versus arXiv," that is a different point entirely. I originally read the question as given: why should we still have journals in the modern age? And that is a good question. The role of journals has evolved. In fact some conferences (e.g., VLDB) have moved to a "journal-first" model in which papers are submitted to a journal and selected papers are invited to be presented at a conference.
  • PS. Why can't I tag einpoklum? It disappears.

    – Fred Douglis Mar 21 '17 at 18:11
  • Thanks Nate. I'm relatively new to stackexchange from the standpoint of active commentary. I would have expected an alert saying it was removing the name, and not silent edits. – Fred Douglis Mar 21 '17 at 20:49
  • 1
    +300 this is the correct answer. – Cape Code Mar 23 '17 at 20:06
  • @CapeCode: Yeah... not that DavidRicherby's answer is completely without merit, but it's the minor aspect of the truth IMO. Thanks for the vote of confidence :-) – einpoklum Mar 23 '17 at 22:19